Discussion in 'Hip-Hop Central' started by Ixtlan, Oct 24, 2006.
Stillmatic..is extremely underrated my friend....that shit was fire
sure it was
got urself a gun was good
one mic and rewind as well
rule was gay
theres like 2-3 other songs that i cant remember but they were weak
konscious said it...jay is nice but its the beats that make his shit hot for the most part
You're overstating the obvious. The fact that the naked vocals were released still required action on the part of producers the world over.
Where are these rigid ideals of what 'classic' SHOULD BE coming from?
Artists have been remixing and screwing songs for quite some time, but tell me where you've ever seen 140+ remixes of the same ALBUM? We're not talking songs. We're talking about a collection of songs.
But when Nas stays in his lane he's merely sticking to his niche...
There are quite a few incarnations of all of this going around Kon.
From Soulive to The Procussions to Sa-Ra Creative Partners.
So really, is it all that groundbreaking?
Neither of those two things amount to much when it comes to how the labels see things in today's industry. Taking such chances is really unprecedented. I believe Busta's made a career out of doing the same, but there aren't many who take those kinds of risks. Majors don't let you eff with the church's money.
Your answer might be more telling than you'd like it to be.
damn y'all stay typin up novels
kingdom come was weak as fuck but that lost ones track is on point
Me and Kon will always go back and forth over Jay-Z & Nas.
as an outsider looking in, Ix's points are based on logic while Kon's points are based on the fact that he favors Nas over Jay(basically Im saying Kon's points are based on emotion, not logical thinking).... Im not saying Kon hasnt made some valid points because he has, but it seems like the jux of his points stem from how much of a nas fan he is and not from a logical standpoint....
but once again, imo, Jay-Z is a far better songwriter, not to mention he has a far better flow, so hey, maybe Im the bias one...lol
just my two....
^You just killed your credibility with your final assertion about Jay Z.
You could also accuse Ixt of the same bias, but I can see how being a Jay Z fan would prohibit you from doing so.
And where did I emotionally state my reasons? And Ixt did not?
I like how you bypass dream233's valid points, Ixt.
Where's your response to this?
How can you denounce rap's lack of creativity yet embrace crossover?
How would you define "core audience," though? Is it his initial audience? If so, then your arguement fails because less than 250K people bought Illmatic during its first year, but it went platinum in '98, a lot quicker than Jay's debut did.
Because he routinely sells platinum, he has thus expanded his "core audience."
I never said that Nas sold a bunch out of the gate, though... I only gave you Jay's numbers because you keep harpin' on commercial viability, which is probably the only edge he has over Nas.
So now we blame the competition? I thought you implied that commercial success is largely dependent upon the artist's efforts, now that would mean that Jay Z was a failure in the beginning, no?
Nas has never been outshone on a track, though... Jay Z has (everybody knows Em killed "Renegade")
So is Nas... who says you HAVE to make club hits?
Why not say he has to have love songs? Or he has to have political songs?
No, Nas has a niche... and so does Jay Z.
See thedream233's post.
How is that any indication of innovation on Jigga's part, though?
Many musicians, critics, and fans share my view that classics should 'impact the times,' thus become new standards for creativity.
You offer that because Jay breaks new producers and releases an a capella version of his previous album that he's innovative and drops classics.
Selecting a producer isn't art... nor is releasing an a capella version of an album.
Then why does it work of Jay Z and not other rappers? Because HE sells the album, not the producers. His name is big all by itself. He's bigger than Timbaland, Primo, 9th Wonder, and even Kanye. He can afford to take chances because of his celebrity. Motown gave Stevie Wonder complete creative control over his '70s work because of his success during the '60s. They had no say over his producers, band members, writing, content, nada. Why did they do that if "labels don't let you eff with the church's money?"
Of course not, and I'm not arguing that point.
I believe one of the two was credited to Missy Elliott.
I think it's wonderful that he's amassed 1 club record in a 12 year career though.
All of these fit into the two categories I said he was skilled in from the jumpoff.
Topicals and storytelling.
As an artist... Nas does 1-2 things well.
He's a great storyteller and he's pretty solid topically.
Surely you don't think this is all there is to Rap music.
I'd honestly missed that earlier, but you call that valid?
Where have you ever heard me demonize all of crossover music?
Kanye's crossover. As is Jay, Outkast... I could go on.
My point is, he's never done crossover numbers.
When I say 'core audience' I really mean Black listeners.
Sorry to confuse.
Let you tell it. Besides... Jay dwarfs Nas' sales since then.
I'm not blaming anyone. Merely pointing out other factors.
And I think his career has proven to be anything but, failure.
I'm guessing you've never heard "John Blaze".
By the way, who doesn't Em kill on tracks?
Normally the labels...
You're acting as though he hasn't tried Kon.
The thing that chaps you is the fact that he's tried and failed.
You're hung up on the whole "innovation" part Kon.
I'm not. I'm merely pointing out the fact that such a movement hasn't been seen in 20 years. That album was immortalized by that movement. That itself, makes that album a "classic". Aside from the material within it.
There are also musicians, critics and fans who don't have such rigid ideals.
Here we go with the "innovation" stuff again.
That's your bag Kon.
"Ready To Die" wasn't really innovative given the material that had been released on that coast at the time, but I dare you to tell me it wasn't "classic".
You undersell the importance of it though.
It's meant the difference between Nas and Jay's careers to a great extent.
Jay's had a lot more creative control than most artists, but breaking producers is not something that artists of his caliber normally do.
Again, he and Busta do it, but there aren't many others...
That should tell you something about just how risky that is.
What? Now you're seriously hatin'... and I don't even like using that word.
If I Ruled the World
You Owe Me
Hate Me Now
Got Yourself a Gun
Made You Look
All those songs bumped in the clubs... how is that just one?
And don't forget poetic imagery, rhyme scheme, delivery, voice, etc.
The only thing that separates Jay and Nas is sales... and some would argue charisma, which I will freely admit that Jay is more charismatic than Nas.
You give it too much weight... I guess you can say the same for my harpin' on innovation... but really and you know it, that's the only advantage Jay has over Nas.
Being that rap music consumers are over 70% white, I really don't think any rap artist has a 'core audience' of strictly black listeners... even P.E. and NWA back in the day had a large white fanbase, though they spoke mainly to black listeners.
Nas' biggest fans these days are white kids in Minnesota. I know the typical media face of a rap fan is that of a "young black teenager," but white kids have been into hip hop since Day 1.
C'mon man, you can't confuse me with semantics. You point out those other factors to illustrate why Jay didn't blow up as a rookie.
If commercial success is largely dependent and controlled by the artist's efforts, then why does the success of other artists matter? Jay should've sold regardless, right? By mentioning the success of other rappers, you're implying that sales is also a function of the market.
I've heard it and he kills it.
Jay was also taken out by Scarface on "Guess Who's Back."
If he's making more than he spent, then he hasn't failed... he's successful.
His margins may not be all that great, but he's making money.
Just like Biggie's death made LAD a classic, right?
I don't buy all of those artificial reasons of why classic status is bestowed on certain albums.
For me, artistic merit wins out... not commerce or controversy.
What about your rigid ideal that in order to be considered the GOAT you have to have street cred, critical acclaim, and commercial viability?
Not that I disagree, but those criteria are pretty rigid, wouldn't you agree?
And from studying what constitutes a classic album, regardless of genre, over the years, I feel that my definition is pretty widely accepted, which is why I included "musicians, critics AND fans" because they makeup the totality of the music community. You can't just count one perspective. Unlike the sole critique of "replay value" (highly subjective) or "every song is dope" that most RM.com users have. Classics rise above mere subjective opinions. And seriously, the only people I hear calling the Black Album a classic are on this site.
Just like you with "commercial viability."
It was innovative in that it was a concept album where the artist is born and dies on the record... you can't get more innovative than that. It was unprecedented.
Actually, I don't... I see it for what it is... commerce. It has not a whole lot to do with art, aside from the final product from the producer and the artist. Jay can "gamble" like that because he's Jay Z... and it saves him money. He doesn't have to spend a lot to make a lot... unlike a newer artist, who almost has to have a name-brand producer in order to make a splash. It's really a simple point.
Some usually stick with their long-time co-horts because of the chemistry... I see nothing wrong with that. Jay wants to save money and give some of his favorite beatmakers a chance. Nothing wrong with that, either.
Okay, maybe I was being a bit unfair to the little guy.
He's got a handful of club records in a 12 year career. Feel better?
I edited a few of them out because I'm sure you didn't mean Hip Hop clubs.
His delivery/scheming aren't all that impressive.
Not when comparing him to artists like Eminem.
And songwriting (which makes for a better catalog), and he's more versatile...
We can agree to disagree though. It's been fun.
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