Discussion in 'Overtime: Off-Topic Discussion' started by Pillsman, May 31, 2012.
Stop trying to make me google shit and just say where the fuck you'er from man. Damn.
So much fail, I...I...I dont even know where to begin......
How about that the US is in a far worse recessionary cycle since the winding down of the Iraq and Afgahnistan wars. How about that NOWHERE near enough people died in the most recent Gulf wars to have an effect on the overall US job market. How about the Gulf of Tolken and 9/11 being of a scale so vastly different that a comparison is defunct. How and why would the US engage in a false flag the scale of 9/11, the risk is FAR too great when you can just fly a few planes over Iraqi territiory and get them shot down. Besides Sadams fingerprints weren't even on 9/11!!!
Oh god, I could type for a week. The internet lol
I don't understand how people have to insert the U.S. Government, an entity that has historically fucked up just about everything it's ever stuck its nose into, in 9/11. Apparently the actual conspiracy behind 9/11 isn't good enough for them.
A Saudi national funds some other Sauds, a Lebenese, and Egyptian and a guy from the U.A.E. training in Afghanistan before they secretly come to America, some as early as a year beforehand, and took flight training and refresher courses. Then, after the arrival of the rest of the group hijacked four planes and flew three of them into their targets with the fourth going down in Pennsylvania.
First off, I appreciate you bumping the post you quoted to the front page of this thread. It's probably the most worthwhile post to read that I have made in this thread. Secondly, it seems as if you missed entirely where I said "in general, American capitalism works this way". Also, I did say a false flag operation can function as a method to boost the economy through population control and generation of wartime industry, but I also stated that it can serve as a "wag the dog" scheme or a diversion to distract the public from what's going on in their own country, i.e. the redistribution of taxpayer dollars to the socioeconomic elite of America.
Also, the economy has indeed been boosted by the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Just not the middle to lower class economy. Business for American arms manufacturers, private "security" companies and energy companies is booming, however.
I don't necessarily think smaller military occupations serve the purpose of population control, because, as you say, the numbers of wounded and dead are too few, however, other wars have served the aforementioned purpose. Vietnam cost over 200,000 U.S. lives, and you have to keep in mind that even those who aren't wounded or killed are still removed from the job market, especially in the event of a conscription, (draft).
For someone who is accusing another person of "failing" you sure do misspell quite a few words. It's the "Gulf of Tonkin" incident. Not the "Gulf of Tolken" incident. We're not talking about a fantasy novel featuring dwarves, elves, and hobbits.
Ask yourself....lets just say if....hypothetically....9/11 was a false flag operation....what did it ultimately accomplish for those at the helm of the financial and corporate sectors of this country?
Ultimately, it gained this country's corporate and financial leaders a rock solid foothold in the middle east, and garnered sympathy from more than enough U.N. Security Council member countries to allow the U.S. to engage in unilateral military action without consequence...not that the big bad United States, a country which allocates 20% of its budget to "defense", (military action, which in most cases, is mostly offensive), needs much sympathy from the U.N. to do what it wants, anyway, but if the corporate and financial interests of America desired the morally unencumbered ability to engage in Middle Eastern military imperialism for an undefined period of time, it wouldn't have been able to accomplish that by simply "getting a few planes shot down over Iraq".
This is what they wanted....a blank check .....a green light to rampage through the Middle East, (at least, through the countries America doesn't have business relationships with or through the countries the U.S. can invade without fear of occupying a proxy country of a rival superpower), and expropriate that region of its precious natural resources, i.e. oil, all on the American taxpayer's dolllar under the auspices of "military action in response to 9/11".
Look up Thomas Malthus....his theories have alot to do with what's going on today...by 2050 the earth will have 9 billion people...if you think we're going to reach that number without having another world war, you're naive as shit.
As population increases, resource scarcity becomes increasingly prevalent, and conflict increases.
U dont need to google shit, click the link I pasted in.
On another note, the US as a dominant force in the world is fucking it up bigtime. The environment, the wealth gap, culture, traditions, diversity, health, peace, is all going to shit if we all let them trample this earth to pieces.
I AM NOT SAYING I want a dictator or opressive regime. But I want a less egocentric, megalomaniac paracite than the US shaping the new world.
someone is pleased with themselves
Yes I got that, In General American Capitalism doesn't work that way, at all...
I said that the American economy is much worse off now that it was before the gulf wars. Of coarse certain parts of the economy will boom but this misses the point of what you said originally, where you emphasised a cyclical economic set up where wars were essential to the turning of the macro economy. This has not happened at all.
So you are saying that a major aim of the Vietnam war was to make the US job market less competitive?
Hilarious, bang on topic as well........ Pointing out typo's always makes for a riveting debate!
You need to ask yourself if 9/11 was worth the risk. What is the downside of being caught vs the upside of success? How likely is it that something would come out?
Yes it would have. Iraq shooting down US planes would at least be an aggressive move by the Iraqi's. 9/11 had nothing to do with Iraq. If 9/11 was a false flag why not put Sadam's fingerprints on it?
Am I now? How about the advent of mass global trade as a deterrent to large scale war? For instance how would the US invade China when China props up the US economy? How would China invade the US when the US buys all of its products? The world is becoming more interdependent and less likely to engage in all out war.
-a friend was arguing w Piff one night from a party drunk ass fuck.
Didn`t read what em wrote, used my facebook
Wars are absolutely essential to the turning of the macro economy....not only do they provide an outlet for the implementation of population control, (meaning the destruction of vast numbers of lives not only on the side of the more often than not aggressor nation, such as America, but also on the side of the occupied nation, nations such as Vietnam....Iraq...Afghanistan), but they also provide, as I said, an apocryphal explanation for what is actually a vast money laundering scheme implemented by the owners of the most profitable American industries, i.e. arms manufacturing, oil refining, and more recently, private "security" provision....
The only thing I left out from the post you originally quoted is that the American capitalist economy is allowed to continue its growth after a war not only because lives have been lost, but because territory has been acquired...profits have been made and corporations feel that they can once again expand which generates new jobs, etc...
As well as to acquire territory and a cheap labor force for U.S. based MNC's...
In my opinion, these are questions you need to ask yourself if you think it's impossible for U.S. financial powers, via the U.S. government and military to have had a hand in 9/11.....it was absolutely worth the risk....because if 9/11 was orchestrated by U.S. financial and political leaders, it will never come out. I mean, hell, Jim Garrison proved in court that it would have been physically impossible for Oswald to kill Kennedy using the method conveyed in the previous investigation into Kennedy's murder, and nothing came of it.
The powers that be are more than capable of keeping a lid on something as big as 9/11 being an inside job because they control the media...understand? They control all the news coverage you read or watch - all the information you absorb, (although with the advent of a more accessible and wide ranging internet, that is becoming less true)...
No....a couple of U.S. planes getting shot down over Iraq would not have provided the U.S. with the kind of international sympathy that it received from the towers getting knocked down i.e over 2500 people dying....you need to exercise some common sense on this one...
Yes...the U.S. buys all of China's products....on credit...lol. What happens when it becomes clear that the U.S. is going to default on that line of credit? China is the largest foreign holder of U.S. debt with about 1.2 trillion dollars in treasury bonds, etc.
There is a gearing up for war between the West and East right now. Putin is in power in Russia, and he is very unfriendly to the West. Many people and political leaders in China are advocating war as *gasp....can you believe it?* a method of population control!
I also just finished a Political Science class which emphasized the interdependence of nation states and regional integration, etc, but it won't prevent another World War in the long run because in the end, you will have two or three different parts of the world vying for the same resources because population is increasing so ra pidly.
The U.S. solves all of its resource problems through military imperialism...at some point this practice is going to spark the underlying brush of ill will toward the U.S. which has accumulated over the last 40 years or so and this will serve as fuel for a worldwide conflict...
Not really. China's ongoing economic miracle happened without a war, Japan's happened despite a war. Brazil, ASEAN and India's upcoming resurgences don't need a conflict. You seemed to be looking at an outdated model for economic success.
Most 3rd world countries will bend over backwards to provide a cheap labour force for US or EU MNC's.
So they control the world media? You think a reputable left wing French newspaper would'nt dive all over any piece of evidence that 9/11 was an inside job? If it was an inside job the cooperation of thousands would be required (depending on which version of the theory you subscribe to), a large number of people would have come out of the woodworks by now or at least we would have some credible information. As of now there is nothing compelling.
You think shooting down US military planes wouldn't result in a war? At least that would have something to do with Iraq, as I have said twice (and you have avoided each time) 9/11 had NOTHING to do with Iraq. 3000 people dying is irrelivant because there was zero Iraqi involvement
In order to keep the value of the RMB down. They aren't doing it just for credit they need to keep the value of their currency low so they remain competitive in the export market, not only with the US but also with the EU.
Who is advocating this? I currently live in China, the state run media is VERY pro Western. Thier current economic growth is based of Western capatalist policies, Western investment and Western customers. Putin and the rest of the BRIC's are following the along the same line. ASEAN is also doing everything possible to increase its links with the EU and the US. The East and West have never been more reliant on each other and further away from a conflict.
Hans Rosling on global population growth | Video on TED.com
The US wont be as important in 40 years. It will be approaching a role similar to the one that the UK holds today of a country with a great deal of importance but short of being a superpower. In short it wont be able to push around its weight anymore.
China is a powerhouse economy that did actually engage in war during the time of its major upheavals toward "liberalization". During the rule of Mao Zedung, (although he espoused communism), the Great Leap Forward was implemented, and although it was of course an economic failure in many respects, it did accomplish the task of building much of China's infrastructure. China was engaged in the Second Sino-Japanese War which became part of World War II, also, so I'm not sure where you've gotten this idea that war hasn't been part of China's economy...
Okay, here's where you seem to be in the dark...yes of course most developing nations will bend over backward to provide a cheap labor force for Western MNC's....because they don't have any other choice.
The WTO, through its dictation of trade agreements, the IMF through its Structural Adjustment Programs, and the World Bank, through the IMF have forced developing nations into production only economies and have also forced them to devaluate their currencies.
IMF Structural Adjustment Programs are essentially the law of the land in terms of international loan conditions, and the conditions set under Structural Adjustment Programs are also known as "The Washington Concensus" meaning that Washington is dictating the fiscal and economic policies of developing nations.
The entire world, (some nations more than others), depends on the U.S.'s consumption of goods...and the U.S. has created this set of circumstances by forcing many other countries in the world into subservience and keeping them in debt to Western based IFI's (International Financial Organizations), but what happens when the U.S.'s economy grinds to a halt as it is in the process of doing?....
I think there's a strong possibility of a long brewing cauldron of resentment toward Western, (specifically U.S.), control erupting when coupled with the natural progression of resource scaricty in the world.
Brother....I think that U.S. forces exert much more control than you are aware of...I mean...take a look at the recent case of Julian Assange....he released a bunch of classified U.S. documents through his site Wikileaks, and suddenly he is accused of sexual assault in Sweden and is about to be extradited from the U.K. to Sweden to be tried for a crime he almost certainly did not commit.
Also, it woudln't have required the cooperation of thousands to simply misdirect government watchdog agencies on a specific day, (9/11/2001), in order to allow a few guys on board a few planes and let them slip past defenses. Why were there fighter jet combat drills on that day,etc.?
U.S. military aricraft being shot down, once again, would not imbue the U.S. government with the unwritten authority to invade an entire region. Terrorism, as another poster pointed out in this thread, is an enemy without a face. Multiple Middle Eastern countries are accused of contributing funding to fanatical groups and even training fanatical groups, (the truth is they have no choice in the matter because those groups terrorize their own governments more than any foreign government), so after 9/11, the U.S. government, like I said, had a green light to go rampaging through the "terrorist producing" region of the world.....a region that also happens to be rich in natural resources....
Ummm...okay...that's nice that you are pointing out the reliance of China on the export market, and that keeping its currency weak against the Euro and dollar keeps its export economy high as well as it's GNP, but this has nothing to do with the fact that China would suffer a crippling blow economically if the U.S. were to announce that it was defaulting on its debt to China...because this would end the trade relationship between the two countries, and would lead to who knows what down the line...
This is interesting...well, I just heard an interview on the BBC in which a reporter was in China interviewing people who were advocating war as a method of thinning out the work force...a politician was also interviewed, (I don't remember the name, unfortunately, but he also pointed to similar sentiment among the political class, although war with a specific country was not alluded to)...Also, I think you are confusing economic liaisons between countries with true alliances. Putin coming to power in Russia is definitely emblematic of increased tension between East and West.
I'll watch this if I have time, but if it is somehow trying to prove that population growth isn't increasing at an alarming rate, I'm pretty sure I'm going to disagree with it...technically, yes annual human popluation growth is in decline worldwide compared to its peak in the 80's, but that doesn't mean that it isn't increasing at lightspeed compared to the majority of human history...
I certainly hope you're correct. You're an optimist, and I admire that. The U.K. is what it is today because it learned how to retract its imperialistic tentacles and have its proxy the United States do all its dirty work...lol...maybe the U.S. can somehow pull off the same feat....
China's economic miracle really began with Deng Xiaoping in the late 70's. A war economy had nothing to do with rise. If anything wars stiffled China's economy for over a hundred years, starting from the first Opium War and ending when they kicked out the Japanese. It took the Chinese decades to recover from these wars.
You vastly underestimate the world outside of the US. Countries want US MNC's because they bring in money, lots and lots of money. They don't need the IMF or the WTO or the UN or whoever to convince them. First and foremost countries want US (and European) MNC's because of the money, then the employemnt.
I think you are going off topic after this, forced austerity and debt cycles are an entirely different discussion. If anything the old colonial powers in Europe are still far worse than the US for this. China is also getting in on the act. You are really just looking at the lowest of the low in this category though.
Assange has pissed off a lot of people in Europe too.
Well it depends, the vast majority of conspiracy theorists subscribe to the idea that the towers were blown up. If you do believe this idea you would need thousands to be in on it. Even if you subscribe to a minimalist theory like you just proposed, you still have great difficulties; where do you find 12 guys willing to kill themselves and 3000 Americans for a governemnet conspiracy? Do you just wait for a threat to occur and just let it happen? Or are the CIA working with Al Queda?
It only invaded two countries, it hardly plundered the region. An aggressive action by Iraq would have allowed the US to go in there, which we assume was the main goal, since Afgahnistan is a clusterfuck of waring goat herders and landmines who's only natural resource is opium.
China is buying governemnt bonds. If the US defaulted on its bonds it would never be able to enter into the bond market again. It would effectively kill its ability to loan money. Fortunately for the US the Dollar is the world reserve currency so its nearly impossible for it to default. My point was China is not buying bonds just to bankroll the States its doing it to keep its currency low to keep its trade with the US and the EU competitive.
Russia gets all of its money from selling energy to the EU. Putin and his Oligarch friends are completely reliant on European money. They have the chops to stand up to the West because the EU needs Russian gas yet at the same time Russia needs EU money. Going to war with the West would be bad business for the Russians.
doepest post in thread
b-boi slammin the haters
Look, war benefits war profiteers, and war profiteering companies usually turn around and invest in other industries as they do here in the United States. Monsanto owns the company formerly known as Blackwater, (now called Xe), etc.
War is a billion dollar industry, and trickle-down economics has been subscribed to by American economists since the Reagan era. This means, as I'm sure you know, that the large scale capitalists get to bascially make huge profits from war and other industries, and those profits supposedly "trickle down" to the lower levels of the economy. This is why war is absolutely essential to the turning of the macro economy.
War may not have had a direct effect on building up China's economy, but it definitely had a direct effect on building up America's economy, and America's economy definitely has had a direct effect on China's economy and economic model, for that matter.
You preach about interdependency, but it's as though you're failing to see how interdependency means that what one nation experiences can affect other nations negatively as well as positively.
Look, if another developed nation opens its economy and labor force to U.S. based MNC's and in return, the U.S. opens its economy and labor force to that country's MNC's, then that's a healthy buisness relationship between two nations on equal economic footing.....but that's not what we're talking about, is it? You mentioned "third world countries", right?
When Western based IFI's use their leverage and position as the primary financial lenders of the world to create circumstances in which the debtor nation is forced to devaluate its currency making its labor force ripe for exploitation by the wealthy nation's MNC's, that is simply loan sharking of the highest calibre, and this is how the IMF and World Bank, the Paris Club, etc, operate in the majority of their dealings with Third World or "developing" nations.
To be honest with you, the "conspiracy theorist" in me would love to subscribe to the theory that there were demolition charges planted in the buildings, and I think it's possible, but I think that the more likely situation is that some guys were commissioned to fly planes into buildings in order to manufacture consent for war in the Middle East. General Colin Powell actually issued a large sum of money, somewhere around 40,000,000 dollars, if I remember correctly, to the Taliban in Afghanistan shortly before 9/11, supposedly to help with the fight against poppy farming/opium production, and the Taliban, of course is the primary funder of al-Qaeda.
Also, Zbignew Brezezinski and the CIA armed and trained the Mujahideen in the 1980's during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and the Mujahideen later metamorphosed into the Taliban.
Do I think the CIA was in on the act? In a word, yes.
Man....the U.S. is definitely in the process of plundering the region...it's a slow process, but it began with the manufacture of consent to invade which was accomplished by the events of 9/11.
And do you think it is impossible for this to change?
Once again, you're talking about the current conditions, but it seems like you're unwilling to admit how quickly power dynamics could shift if countries started to switch to the RMB as the global reserve currency, or if the U.S. officially announced it was defaulting on its debt to China...
Some of the writing is on the wall....things can change drastically in a small number of years...I hope they don't, but I acknowledge the possibility of such drastic power and paradigm shifts...much of the reason that the dollar is the global reserve currency is because the American economic model, (Keynesian capitalism), has been so successful at building infrastructure and creating large amalgamations of wealth, but what will happen if that image of America begins to crumble?....Things will change, my friend....unless smaller wars are used to keep the American economy afloat....
Wow, Ravenous is on point with most this stuff.
I'll say this, though. The recession had almost nothing to do with the wars winding down. It happened almost solely because the housing bubble burst. Due to credit deregulation that started with reagan and was renewed and tweaked through H. Bush and Clintons presidencies it was ridiculously easy to get credit to buy things you can't afford. This was amplified even further in 2005 when house prices started to skyrocket.
This is why America's so fucked up:
I'll try to put this simply so it's not a massive text wall. So as the cycle goes, people would buy houses they couldn't afford that were worth less than they were paying for. They would default on the loans, get evicted, and then be stuck with the debt with an interest rate so high it was impossible to pay off. That leads to us having millions of people permanently in debt. We have banks who have properties that no one's living in or paying for it because they loaned out to idiots who don't know how to manage money, so the banks are also out of the money they owned because no ones paying it back.
So what do they do with that debt? They sell it in debt exchanges which are primarily owned by........................ yup, China. So we have a population in debt with the banks, and banks who are, at the end of the chain, in debt to China. Investors see this, and pull there money out of the market because they see there's no longer money to be made. When the investors pull the money out, that money is in a sense taken away from corporations who employ the people who defaulted on loans to banks who owe china money for loaning money to people who can't afford houses. There's a bit more to it, but that's the general jist of what happened.
It's even more pathetic if you look at the 1990 housing crash in Japan that damn near crippled the country. There's an example of what was going to happen if we continued to rely on the housing industry to make our money. Now we're stuck fiddling around trying to find where to get those hundreds of billions of dollars we lost when the housing market collapsed.
Also, people tend to portray an overly negative picture of America's image in the world. Yeah, our government is a fuck up and everyone knows it. But the government is only a small part of America's pragmatic effect on the world. I do a lot of work in Central America, mostly around Guatemala, and American business is the only thing keeping a lot of those Central American countries out of poverty. If you look at where all those countries make their money, it's almost all from exporting to the US and the US bringing businesses down there. As a matter of fact, expats(from everywhere) make up a very significant percentage of Guatemala's GDP. That's solely from expats just living their everyday lives. And people generally like you if you're American or foreign. They want to work for you, because we're more compassionate and will generally pay better wages under better conditions than the greedy/cruel upper caste. That has nothing to do with the government, only our values and how we treat other people as civilians.
I'm not trying to ride America's dick here, I could post pages on what I don't like about America. I just think that our government is awful but our population in general, especially the younger generations, are good people who just want to do right.
Also, 9/11 wasn't a government conspiracy
and Canadians only hate us because we broke their stick.
Thank you, sir.
This ^ is an amazingly on point description of the predatory lending and housing bubble which of course played a major contributing role in America's current recession, but it seems like you're pointing to a symptom as the underlying cause of America's economic woes instead of the actual underlying cause itself, which is America's very economic model, Keyensian capitalism.
The entire system, (not just the housing market), runs on instant gratification or buying things on "credit" which really just means you have to go into debt in order to make any large purchases in America.
This is the problem.
Huge amounts of debt coupled with corporations which have gained too much unearned power and use that power to influence law makers to deregulate markets even further to allow for even higher debt ceilings might also be more accurately described as the root cause of the problem.
There is no fiscal responsibility within this system. The problem is systemic, in other words, and the bursting of the housing bubble was only a symptom of that systemic problem.
I'm sorry, man but this ^ is simply a bunch of malarkey. Plain and simple. I don't know what kind of work you do, but unless it involves conducting economic hits on developing countries for the CIA, I don't know how you could make the statements you made in the above paragraph.
American, Japanese, Chinese, and Korean based electronics corporations and large scale farming corporations have been exploiting the shit out central and south American countries for decades, and it all starts with the forced implementation of IMF S.A.P.'s or structural adjustment programs.
>The Maquiladoras in Tijuana where the Mexican labor laws are almost completely disregarded, and the environments surrounding the Maquiladoras or factories there are horrendously polluted. People growing up in those areas have no water, very little food, no electricity, and work for slave wages because of the structural adjustment program Mexico entered into with the IMF in the mid 1980's in exchange for a loan from the World Bank.
>The Dole plantations in Central America that also pay their workers slave wages and send in paramilitary forces if the workers try to strike or stand up for themselves in any way and shut out smaller private farmers because the WTO or World Trade Organization makes sure that the corporate farmers get better trade deals, i.e. no tariffs on their goods, or exclusive trade deals with particular countries making it impossible for smaller farmers to compete price wise......
You're way off base, homie...Central and South America is the U.S.'s immediate sphere of influence, and the U.S. and the IFI's it houses make damn sure that the United States remains economically dominant over that sphere of influence by any means necessary...
I don't know, man....most people in this country watch alot of Fox news and are pretty apathetic and ambivalent toward the plights of poor people in other countries...
Nah man, I'm not trying to say America doesn't do shady shit and I'm well aware of corporations exploiting countries. You're talking on a more international level, I'm trying to speak on the local level from what I've seen. I was surprised at how well received we were in Central America on my first visit. I was expecting a lot of hate based on our countries history of exploiting the 3rd world, but instead found we were welcomed.
Nah dude, that's pretty much how the economy crashed. I'm not going to explain the whole process on here, waaay too lazy for that. What I explained were symptoms at the beginning that exploded into a full blown disease in late 2008. People tried to vocalize the problem in the early 2000's, but who's going to listen to that when your business is still making billions of dollars a year. After the "bubble" burst you had banks losing money because property values plummeted. That's why the recession started and that's why we had to bail banks out almost a trillion dollars.
Don't take me as disagreeing with you bro. Like I said, I think you're on point as fuck on most the stuff on here. I know more happened than the housing burst, but that was by far the most significant loss of money in the whole ordeal. I just think you're overstating the economic significance of the wars dying down in the current recession. tbh, We probably haven't felt the effects of that since our military is still pretty active, and that's scary to think what could happen when we lose the economic power of these wars. As a matter of fact, our Defense budget is actually 200 billion-ish higher this year than it was in 2002 when the war started (although I'm no expert so I don't know what that number is calculating in inflation).
I clicked on here looking for a laugh expecting to see a bunch of trolling and bullshit but was surprised there was actually a good conversation going on.
I forget people still watch Fox News...
I've never been sold on 9/11 conspiracies. I've seen no convincing evidence and I don't even know if anything could convince me it was a conspiracy. I really want to believe our government wouldn't do anything like. I might just be ignorantly hopeful or something like that...
Edit: I just reread my earlier post about Central America and realized I did a poor job of explaining my reasoning. What I was trying to say is that a lot expats living down there own a small business of some sort, and a lot of these businesses pay better with better conditions. I can see how it looked like I was condoning MNC's activities down there, which I do not.
Well you gotta understand, we outside the US sympathize with the american people, we know you're getting fucked by your fascist asshole elite. As long as we on that level it's all love. It's just those fucking irritating americans who are in denial and fanatically defending their psychopatic corporations, corrupt government and scumbag political leaders we can't stand.
I will say this, Americas stance on drugs causes most of the problems in these countries and countries in South America.
Separate names with a comma.