you couldnt stop sinning if u wanted to..

Discussion in 'The Sanctuary' started by TheBigPayback, Mar 18, 2012.

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  1. Nu'maaN

    Nu'maaN Anu'naki, Nuqqa.

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    replace sin with mistake, and you might understand it clearer.

    humans are meant to make mistakes, it's up to them to rectify them and learn.

    my god is just, if you've rectified your ways and learnt, then you'll be dealt accordingly.

    however, if you keep doing what you're doing and blame it on man's nature - you fail.

    i never said inherently sinful, my fathers sins has nothing to do with me as a person.

    i reap what i sow, everything i've done on this earth (good/bad) is accounted for.

    :numaan:
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  2. reggie jax

    reggie jax Well-Known Member

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    alright well first off i was initially speaking on my understanding of christian theology, so any areas where islam might differ aren't actually included in my argument

    but just to clear a few things up:

    inherently sinful was not mean to refer to original sin. i refer to human nature as inherently sinful because if fornication, greed and envy are sinful then there is simply no way around the fact that we are in fact designed to sin. in reality i don't believe these things are actually sinful, so i'm not blaming anything on human nature. but assuming that they are, it seems that man is set up to fail. substituting the word mistake might make it all sound better, but i don't think it's an accurate term since sin is generally intentional.
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  3. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    U dont see those thin gs as very sinful from your nature in your viewpoint.
    But were judged against the standards of a holy God. Wgich is why we could never be good enough to meet that criteria. Jesus has, and was judged for your envy and your greed.
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  4. reggie jax

    reggie jax Well-Known Member

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    i don't see why god would design me to want to sin and then tell me it's wrong. i dont see fornication as a sin because the drive to mate is instilled in our design, and marriage is simply a social construct. greed and envy, just like sex, are also pretty much universal in the natural world. it all boils down to the same thing: desire, and we're all born to have it. rather than an abomination or a sin, it's one of the traits that sets animals apart from all the motionless matter we inhabit.
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  5. Nu'maaN

    Nu'maaN Anu'naki, Nuqqa.

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    fair call.

    it's a desire, most sins are very desirable acts.

    the test is to fight the desires (jihad) and contain some sort of self control.

    prophet yusuf (joseph) said it the best, when he was approached by the queen.

    and later when asked about the incident, he replied.

    this was in relation to the king asking the queen and women of egypt about the way the queen seduced yusuf into trying to have sex with him. this was yusuf's reply, he fought his desires to sleep with the queen of egypt (who must've been pretty damn hot).

    and even still, he isn't giving himself any credit as man is prone to sin.

    it's up to us to fight the desires to commit those sins, think about it.

    if god had created sin to be non-appealing, nobody would sin.

    you can't live like a bug and just do as you desire, right?

    :numaan:
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  6. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    You werent designed that way originally. We were originally made to live in communion with God and God can't be around sin. Our disobediance brought sin into the world, our ancestors made it part of our nature. Which is why jesus couldnt come from joseph, because he also would have inherited the sin nature,
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  7. NightmareEx

    NightmareEx The Beast

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    Begs the question.

    Isn't a design that goes awry on day one just a bad design? Making anything, and having it fuck up within 24 hours = clearly a design error.

    Sin would signify god's imperfection, and thus prove his non existence.

    Boom. /threadandSanct
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  8. reggie jax

    reggie jax Well-Known Member

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    yea, i'm not saying that there's no value to practicing restraint/self-control. in the case of your story, doing as he desired would've had obvious and immediate consequences and implications, and as man is a social creature we do have to practice a certain amount of diplomacy in our dealings with other men.

    this is where the idea of sin has it's value, it dissuade people from these problematic situations. however, like most things religious, the concept is imo too heavy handed and thus creates its own set of issues. rather than employed as a practical device where it has value, it is treated as a spiritual absolute and thus sexual desire itself is treated as something depraved(outside marriage, which is biologically irrelevant).

    like the basic anti-adultery law is pretty self explanatory. anyone could see the common sense behind upholding the bonds of marriage. especially in the context which it was written (ancient near east religion), adultery is almost treated as a general issue of property rights. to take another man's wife to bed is an offense to that man's contract with her. however, extending this to all sex outside marriage (fornication) is a much less practical approach. it basically boils down to denying human nature. this is the cost of thinking in terms of mystical forces rather than cause/effect relationships.

    i get the idea you probably think this is somewhat of a cop out ("blaming" our sin on human nature). but i think it's actually a matter of empirical fact that the lust/greed/envy/etc we feel is exactly what's supposed to happen. expanding our knowledge on human and animal biology has illuminated this fact for modern humans. there's nothing at all out of the ordinary or depraved about it.

    so it seems to me that those cases where it might lead to problematic situations should be dealt with as best as we can manage, without casting a shadow on the actual root of our desires. cause the at the root of sin lies instinct, and the root of our intelligence derives from this very same source.
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  9. reggie jax

    reggie jax Well-Known Member

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    nightmare said what i would've responded with here. my guess is you'd say that it's not god's fault that man 'fell' cause adam had free will, even though he didn't actually have any knowledge of good and evil until after that first bite. the mental gymnastics needed to make this scenario make sense are beyond my abilities, so we might as well agree to disagree as we've undoubtedly had this conversation 100s of times already.
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  10. Nu'maaN

    Nu'maaN Anu'naki, Nuqqa.

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    he had the knowledge, before hand.

    in terms of anti-adultery laws in religion, it's not just for property rights/contract.

    it avoids any bastard children being spawned, which is always a good thing.

    sex is not a depraved/shameful act at all, it's fornication outside marriage that is.

    :numaan:
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  11. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    He didnt create it.
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  12. NightmareEx

    NightmareEx The Beast

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    *people*

    So yes, he did. (According to Christian mythology, of course).

    Also the nature of god being the creator of everything, stands to reason he had to have created sin as well. Or it wouldn't exist.
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  13. reggie jax

    reggie jax Well-Known Member

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    how so?


    that's true, i didn't think of that.

    however i'd argue that in modern society one need not abide by the marriage law in order to avoid getting pregnant, and so both the property rights element and the bastard child element are outdated in many ways.

    the point, in my mind, is that you're still using practical reasons to justify an absolute concept. i do not argue that there are no behavioral issues humans must cope with as members of a society. i simply see these issues as normal, run of the mill mortal problems that are best dealt with by the 'common law' approach, rather than unreasonable commandments handed down from on high, and vast sweeping condemnations of all humankind.
    fornication is simply sex. there's nothing depraved about it. the idea that a marriage contract is necessarily to make human biology acceptable is entirely absurd.
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  14. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    You dont have to have a degree in ethics to know that if God tells you not to do something you probably shouldnt.
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  15. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    The closest you could get to trying to attibute a holy God, a God that cant be around it. Has to be seperated by dimension from it is that he created.something with freewill thus giving the ability of sin to be created to the hands of another being. Ok. Maybe.
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  16. reggie jax

    reggie jax Well-Known Member

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    but you do need a basic understanding of right vs wrong. i thought that's what eating from the tree gave them.
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  17. Sir Bustalot

    Sir Bustalot I am Jesus

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    Ill tell ya one thing. I couldnt stop Smiling if i tried, and its not cause of a bible or tablet or cuz god is allowing me to be happy.
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  18. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    You dont need to know right and wrong if God himself tells you 'Do not eat from the tree in the middle of the garden because you will die'

    Everything they needed to know God told them.
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  19. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    U dont know what its like to be seperate from God because everything living is a part of God. And being seperated totally from God is called death in the bible so until u die without him u dont kno what its like to not have him around.
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  20. reggie jax

    reggie jax Well-Known Member

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    you're not thinking about this hard enough.

    god told them not to eat from it, because on that day they will die. the serpent tells them this is wrong, and that god knows eating from the tree will give them knowledge. eve sees that the fruit is 'good for food' and thus is lead to believe the serpent.

    keeping in mind that they don't have any sense of right and wrong, why do you suppose they should have known better and sworn obedience to god? from a purely logical perspective, the serpent wasn't lying. you can see this in the text i highlighted red. their eyes were opened to morality as soon as they ate the fruit. this is probably why they covered themselves and then hid from god, now having the capacity to understand what they've done wrong.
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