Why One and Not the Other?

Discussion in 'Hip-Hop Central' started by NinjaMic, Jun 25, 2013.

  1. NinjaMic

    NinjaMic Brian Disease

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    Where's the line? What's the difference between someone who tries to rap, succeeds at spitting crazy-hot shit to a beat, and might eventually fall off and fuck up, or never make a song that makes people feel good at the malt-shop sock-hop...

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    ...and someone who tries to rap, but can't, and just keeps doing it anyway, but never fails because there's no lyrical, financial or reputation risk involved in making "songs" in the Elton John sense?

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    Why is one penalized for succeeding at actually rapping most of the time, and the other exalted by rap fans for comparatively failing at rapping almost all of the time, and compensating for this failure by resting their laurels entirely on music, the way other genres and expressive mediums would need to, due to having none of the phonetic engineering and audible plasticity that hip-hop exemplifies in the first place?

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    ...and why are artists who can do all of the above - all the sing-song ching-chong, thematic conceptualization stuff and actual rapping in far more impressive ways - not on a pedestal even higher than the song-writer who can count to 16 with his Mother-Goose rhymes when he needs to?

    Except Andre:

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    He must be the highlander 'cause there can be only one.

    Basically... why do people call amazing rappers mediocre, mediocre rappers musical geniuses, and rap music geniuses irrelevant?
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  2. mr marz

    mr marz Member

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    u asked like ten similar but different questions and i dont have that big of an attent....
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  3. ThatsNotMyName

    ThatsNotMyName The Conquering Lion

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    Let's get @GaLaTeA she can follow your train of thought, Ninja. lol

    I think I grasp the overrall message you're sending and you know I'm always on your behalf.
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  4. NinjaMic

    NinjaMic Brian Disease

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    It's all good. You got the answer right.

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  5. ThatsNotMyName

    ThatsNotMyName The Conquering Lion

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    Hip Hop society is not the most perfect one, it's not even that good.
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  6. NightmareEx

    NightmareEx The Beast

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    Subjective art is subjective.

    /thread
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  7. NinjaMic

    NinjaMic Brian Disease

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    The perceptions and interpretations of people come and go, but the subject of interpretation can remain indefinitely and potentially exist in perpetuity. With this in mind, it must be understood that instances of creation can theoretically transcend the fleeting, mortal perception of it and contain some inalienable values and merits as a facet of existence, with purpose and place within the universe. This value can inevitably be quantified and objectively stated, if not now, by us... but by someone at some point in time.

    For instance. Origami can be folded, crumpled, torn, burned and written on. So to can the flesh and the formless expression of soul as a meritable manifestation of any and all emotion. However, solid structures and forms that repel and repulse the limitations of flesh can be considered indelible, and encapsulate the expression of soul within an immortal embrace. When masterpieces whither and weather away, monoliths maintain. The combination of both is more perpetual. With artistic expression itself being mortal moments manifested as markers of existence that outlast the inception of thought, art is bound to the immortality it dares to invite.

    It could be said, then, that only something with timelessness has any hope to ever be understood objectively by those eventually capable of doing so. In knowing this, we can know that something must be built to last and appear to be without structural flaw to be worthy of transcendentalist reverence. The work must be like water and be like rock. Essential and ineffaceable. The trendy, aloof, ungrounded, soft and insubstantial simply cannot persevere beyond the extent of which the perception of them continues.

    /rope
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  8. NinjaMic

    NinjaMic Brian Disease

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    A perfectly constructed verse, as it could be currently perceived, has the necessary traits to run a longer marathon of incremental, generational interpretation and perception to come closer to being fully understood on an objective level. It contains elements that could be easily quantified, rather than only appreciated and enjoyed in a superficial, sensory way. If it's never seen or experienced, then it's removed from the timeline, but not invalidated as something that would, could or should have achieved objectification.
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  9. Halfway_Crook

    Halfway_Crook Well-Known Member

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    Bro I don't understand your post. Please simplify.
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  10. ThatsNotMyName

    ThatsNotMyName The Conquering Lion

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    Why rappers who make good music get more respect than rappers who actually rap good?
    And why rappers who can't rap but make good music get a pass?

    And he's got a point. Rappers who are just good rappers not only get less respect but have it harder. Rap-fans judge 'em harder. And why?

    I think he asked that, for the most part of the op at least.

    And yeah, Andre >>
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  11. NinjaMic

    NinjaMic Brian Disease

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    ThatsNotMyName can say it simply.

    Because communication is a survival skill, and rhythmic music is an ancestrally spiritual ward, I'll just add more in a way that continues to maintain full compass of such an important subject.

    Many rap listeners opine upon the merits and makings of rap music in an authoritative way, but see rapping itself as a disposable, worthless art form... if it's not playing a lucrative, tertiary role to what they do appreciate and respect: the familial sounds and orthodoxy song composition of 20th century pop, rock, soul, alternative etc music.

    These artifices are interlopers that subconsciously seek to eradicate and understate the sacrosanct nature of relatively new cultural purities for the sake of furthering the preeminence and domination of their more familial cultural origins; wherever the traces of it may manifest most apparently in music. Proxy to the needs of existing profiteers, they reverse the flow and stem the proliferation. "This is the nature of the threat." It's something subcutaneous to, and more malignant than the "hipster" boogieman.
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  12. NinjaMic

    NinjaMic Brian Disease

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    Personally, I think the aversion to dense, refined and complicated arrangements of language and new colloquial elements is simply a moment-to-moment power struggle in the slow evolution of thought and sensory perception. An attempt to keep things simple and easy to survive within, and snip any minority mutations that go ever-so-slightly beyond baseline communication and sound. That which is pleasing to the ear is indefinitely repeated and restated by any existing majority in slightly different, but ultimately similar ways, so long as that majority exists and until human beings evolve their tastes to accept new baseline patterns for aural and linguistic pleasure. It happens slowly, but surely.

    I posit my hypothesis on this theory that outlines man's inclination towards stagnant, derivative simplicity in music:



    5:19

    "To be sure. That will most likely not always be true. Musical tastes hundreds, thousands of years from now, will most assuredly be different."

    I firmly believe that any attempted suppression, historically or currently, of the exponentially increasing complexity of communication found in rap is driven by the subconscious fear of obsolescence. This is why people who generally feel as though their intelligence is somehow being insulted or undermined by any attempt at intellectual exchange in any form of art, fallible or otherwise, meet that which renders them comparatively inferior to "stop trying to sound smart."
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  13. NightmareEx

    NightmareEx The Beast

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    What you're suggesting is not possible. Objective merit cannot be applied to subjective material, ever. There are certain things about it that you can classify objectively, yes. But it's MERIT? No. The problem is, different people want and need art to be different things at different times.

    The real question is: when are fans going to make an honest attempt at BEING more objective and not apply biased and hypocritical double standards to the art? When are fans going to put aside trends/bandwagoning (and indeed, ANTI trends/bandwagoning) in an attempt to be as fair as possible to emcees releasing music?

    That's what I wait for.
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  14. NightmareEx

    NightmareEx The Beast

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    She's not coming.
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  15. Ace the Prophet

    Ace the Prophet A Prophet to the Game

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    It all depends on how relatable their music is IMO. Whose music connects with nearly everyone? Anybody can have the skills necessary to have a career in hip hop (delivery, flow, lyrics, emotion, etc). But whose connects with the most people?

    This is why most songs on the radio are generally bland and unoriginal because they connect with the most people. You'll find a couple gems here and there and they're the ones that really succeed.

    It's why Eminem has been the most popular MC ever. Not only were his skills both unique and incredible in his prime, but many could relate to him as well. Of course, there are many other factors as to why he blew up but I don't think there will be another MC as universally known and recognized as Eminem.

    It's also why many underground rappers stay underground. Their music's not as relatable. It's why Lupe never blew up in the mainstream though many will put him in their top 10.
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  16. Dear Diary

    Dear Diary Well-Known Member

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    i don't think there's anything wrong with praising someone for making good music, from a sonical and musical standpoint. i also don't think there's anything wrong with praising someone who is really good at rapping/writing. and i agree that there is a certain dissonance there, where rappers are praised for rapping really badly but having their music sound really good while they do so. Kanye would be the prime example here, but there's many others, as we all know.

    i guess in a perfect world, a Kanye West and a Canibus should be at about the same level of recognition, given that they both excel at one element of rap music and completely fail at the other.

    either way, the artists that should receive the most recognition should be the ones that can unite all of these factors into an essentially 'perfect' product, and they usually do get a lot of love: Andre 3k, Eminem in his prime, even Jay-Z in his prime come to mind. Kendrick Lamar if he can keep it up. on the other hand, you got guys like Lupe Fiasco or Elzhi, who - at least in my opinion - are doing the same thing, but they cannot reach that top level of recognition (although Lupe isn't doing too badly).

    i suppose it does go back to relatability, image and marketing, as it always does in the entertainment industry.
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  17. NinjaMic

    NinjaMic Brian Disease

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    By existing in perpetuity, there are many things about classical music, and even sound in the natural environment, that have had the opportunity to be observed scientifically and logically, via correlations to sensations of pleasure and various other functions and synaptic responses of the human brain and how this can be enumerated and expressed in tangible, readable form. I feel like it's inevitable that verse can be properly quantified in these terms, by the merits of it's syntax and design. In that state, the only subjective is whether someone is wired to prefer pleasure or pain, and perceive either one incorrectly.

    How does music theory even exist if nothing can be objectified? How do people that rap methodically learn to rap or amalgamate technique in order to incrementally build upon fundamentals in the first place if there are no fundamental qualities to be understood, even on a subconscious level in the same way that babies learn to speak the same language their parents do?

    It's very difficult to properly express what the objective qualities that any piece of art has in an objective way, but the qualities are present and there will always be a delineation between art and craft, where art is upheld by craft that is much more easily objectified as positive, and better off for it.
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  18. NinjaMic

    NinjaMic Brian Disease

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    Dissonance is the perfect word for it. I've seen so many people online sitting on words like "song" and "music" to shout down the validity and importance of rapping as an aspect of rap music, or as an artform and craft unto itself. That a certain standard of lyricism automatically detracts from music and makes it hard to enjoy, or that a dope beat is never the time and place to kill it.

    If your GOAT is a song writer, go for it. It's all good, but it's not the final word or some special brand of logic that sons 20 years of backpackers, with no need for explanation. Hooks and adherence to 16-bar methodology doesn't make you a great rapper, and lack of "songs" don't make you a bad one. Imagine being in a cypher, hearing someone spit crazy, crazy shit and just going "that's wack... where's the hook? you're a bad rapper... I can't bump this shit in the whip or smoke a blunt to this."
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  19. Kry

    Kry Willie Stylus

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    I'm confused but I'm gonna try to make a relevant post. Hiphop is a young man's game...young men do what they are told is "cool". Hiphop was given away to corporate America, and for the most part corporate America tells young men what is "cool". So corporate America makes it easy on themselves by creating a cookie cutter that can be used by whoever they want whether they are good at rapping or not. In turn they have endless means to find the next big rapper becuz if one fails there is 10,000 more they can try with at the snap of a finger. That's why a dope rapper always has to change up his style to "make it". Corporate America used to fight against Hiphop when they had no control over it, and instead of keeping control of a great artform/culture, the Hiphop Community got salty that Hiphop was not looked at the "same" as other genres...so we got what we asked for and corporate America scooped it up and made it the "same". Now it's just another tired popular genre instead of the culture it once was. Back then the culture and community of Hiphop kept an MC honest, you couldn't remotely bite a style or you were toast, you couldn't do a radio freestyle and read it off your phone(or paper in those days), you couldn't publicly broadcast yourself buying a bunch of your own albums out of Sam Goody, and you couldn't blatantly claim to be something you're not. Now that the old generation of Hiphop has lost it's influence, the new generation is following different rules set by Coporate America who is only concerned with money and could give a fuck about the integrity of Hiphop. So basically the reason why one and not the other...becuz Corporate America says so, and we listen.
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  20. JASON ANTHONY

    JASON ANTHONY White Devil

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    I think if you were to ask your girlfriend, she would have the answer.

    "Uh... cus like... he's hot and I like ta dance to it"
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