why do feminists deliberately forget the events on the titanic?

Discussion in 'IntroSpectrum' started by UnbrokeN, Jan 30, 2007.

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  1. identity-X

    identity-X No Talent Assclown

    Jun 16, 1999
    who said anything about partiular "research groups"? i said research field.

    Thousands of academics who are on YOUR SIDE, publishing work arguing that media twist and turn all sorts of messages.

    you're LOOKING for something to argue about and will do so with people who AGREE with you apparently

    it affects all viewers. i never waid or would say otherwise.

    what's the nature of this "sexual guidance" though?

    most of the time a couple can sit down, watch porn between two consenting adults, go "oooh, we've never tried that position" or "oooh that looks fun" and take what they've learned into the bedroom

    but that ALSO means that a person could sit down, watch porn between two consenting adults, and go "ooooh, that person likes to get slapped in the face, even without asking for it, by that other person during sex....i bet my partner would like the same thing" and then they take what they've larned into the bedroom

    that's all i'm saying...

    dworking believes all porn is bad.
    i don't.

    i'm pretty sure that means I don't agree with her.

    you're right...i didn't state "male and female" i said "viewer" and "partner" which in no way implies "males only".

    when I say it CAN have effects, that doesn't mean it will. surely that's not that hard to understand...

    adults CAN separate the two, but they don't always.
    just like they CAN internalize what messages they see in porn, even if they don't always

    i've seen porn where men have pulled out and shoved their dick in a woman's ass and you hear the woman SCREAM to pull it out. the scene fades out, and 2 seconds later he's back in her vagina. i've seen porn where men repeatedly slap or gag women with their dick without the woman asking for it.

    does that mean the women didn't know to expect it before the film started rolling? no...it most certainly could have been in their contract. it could have been talked about beforehand.

    but that doesn't mean the VIEWER knows or understands this. and when he hauls off and smacks a woman because "women like it...i see it in porn" or when he rams his dick down a woman's throat because "women like it...i see it in porn"...that's when it becomes a problem.

    does this always happen? no
    does this often happen? probably not
    does it happen this way? probably so
    CAN it happen this way? absolutely

    but you DO share the thoughs of many contemporary feminists.

    i denounce dworkin's "all porn is bad" stance entirely.

    i've read enough of her stuff to know that she thinks all porn is bad, but I haven't read enough to know that i denounce everything she says. why would i denounce something i don't know about?

    um...i do accept it


    understand this...

    not only was Dworkin on the tail end of the second-wave, but she was one of the more RADICAL feminists from the second wave. second-wave feminist thought probably falls closer to that of Dworking than third-wave feminist thought.

    why would I denounce the positive aspects of second-wave feminism. I can agree with those ideas, even while denouncing larger portions of their other ideas.

    it's the norm among third-wave feminists...that's why they exist in the first place
  2. identity-X

    identity-X No Talent Assclown

    Jun 16, 1999
    of couse they still read her...it doesn't make her influential! it doesn't make her thought representative of contemporary feminist thought. she's inconse-fucking-quential.

    let's do a little exercise...

    sales of the most recent editions of in-print adult books by bell hooks - probably THE most influential feminist of the last 20 years.

    - Homegrown (2006) - Amazon.com Sales Rank: #147,571
    - We Real Cool: Black Men and Masculinity (2003) - Amazon.com Sales Rank: #33,016 in Books
    - Teaching Community: A Pedagogy of Hope (2003) - Amazon.com Sales Rank: #49,936
    - The Will to Change: Men, Masculinity, and Love (2004) - Amazon.com Sales Rank: #114,991
    - Rock My Soul: Black People and Self-Esteem (2004) - Amazon.com Sales Rank: #53,270
    - Communion: The Female Search for Love (2002) - Amazon.com Sales Rank: #135,051
    - Salvation: Black People and Love (2001) - Amazon.com Sales Rank: #322,490
    - Where We Stand: Class Matters (2000) - Amazon.com Sales Rank: #43,878
    - Feminism Is for Everybody: Passionate Politics (2000) - Amazon.com Sales Rank: #9,912
    - All About Love: New Visions (2000) - Amazon.com Sales Rank: #15,001 (one of my favorite books of ALL TIME)

    hell...even her more famous earlier books (Feminist Theory: From Margins to center [1984!!!), Outlaw Culture, Black Looks) outsell Dworkin's books.

    let's compare this to the most recent editions of Dworkin's newest non-memoir/autobiographical books...

    - Scapegoat : The Jews, Israel, and Women's Liberation (2000) - Amazon.com Sales Rank: #896,425
    - Life and Death: Unapologetic Writings on the Continuing War Against Women (1997) - Amazon.com Sales Rank: #953,452
    - In Harms Way: The Pornography Civil Rights Hearings (1997) - Amazon.com Sales Rank: #690,326
    - Right Wing Women (1983) - Amazon.com Sales Rank: #675,292
    - Letters From a War Zone (1988) - Amazon.com Sales Rank: #979,937
    - Pornography and Civil Rights: A New Day for Women's Equality (1988) - Amazon.com Sales Rank: #1,576,477
    - Intercourse (1988) - Amazon.com Sales Rank: #299,141
    - Pornography—Men Possessing Women (1981) - Amazon.com Sales Rank: #106,778
    - Our Blood: Prophesies and Discourses on Sexual Politics (1976) - Amazon.com Sales Rank: #1,871,900
    - Woman Hating: A Radical Look at Sexuality 1974) - Amazon.com Sales Rank: #970,959

    OH BOY! her work is just FLYING off the shelvess

    slapping a new preface or introduction into a book doesn't change the fact that the ideas of the actual chapters are 15-20 years old.

    ALL third-wavers have influence by the second wave, in one way or another. we stand on the shoulders of giants. one of the biggest influence of hte second wave is that it TURNED contemporary feminists away from some of their more radical ideas because they were NOT WORKING.

    not every feminist is third wave...this doesn't change the fact that third-wave feminism is FAR more influential than second-wave feminism. it doesn't change the fact that second-wave feminists (most of whom are 50+ years old) are STILL becoming decreasingly influential.

    evangelical christianity is influential as well...but it's in the same boat as second-wave feminism. it's influence is FAR surpassed by that of more mainstream christian thought. mainstream christians borrow ideas from evangelical christianity, but it doesn't mean evangelism is representative of all christian thought

    no....TWENTY plus fucking years ago she was influential to a small radical faction of second-wave feminism.

    wikipedia is does not have the final say in determining influence. that fact that her ideas are absent in third-wave feminist literature (except when they're being chewed up and spit out) is evidence enough that her ideas are not representative of contemporary feminist thought.

    Andrea Dworkin was no Edgar Allen Poe.

    there ARE second wave feminists that have an pretty good influence on today's feminists. people like Betty Friedan or Gloria Steinam. people who laid the groundwork for feminist thought back in the 60's.

    Dworkin isn't in this league. she rose to fame by latching onto a single issue (pornography) an only became famous because a section of radical-feminists AND the increasingly powerful Christian Right of the 1980's supported her statements.

    - not all porn is bad
    - some porn can be bad for anyone who views it

    identifying with a particular wave of feminism means you share a number of BASIC thoughts about how feminist thought.

    namlely...a focus on love of self. love of family. love of friends. a recognition of the role of class, race, and sexuality and how this interacts with sexist oppression. and a recognition that most second wavers paid no attention to these issues....which leads to a recognition that THAT is why feminist movement in the 60's and 70's failed.

    third wave feminism is critical of all sexist oppression. men are more powerful at all levels of all social institutions (including the family). sexist oppression of women occurs far more often and more intensely than sexist oppression of men.

    when that switches, you can bet there will be bigger criticisms of the oppression of men by feminists...as long as sexist oppression is present, i'll be critical.
  3. identity-X

    identity-X No Talent Assclown

    Jun 16, 1999
    point out where i said their effects are life threatening
    can't do it can you?

    "solely" is different than "more often than not"

    there are multiple "culprits" behind sexist oppression and destructive behavior in the bedroom. Porn isn't excused from being a possible culprit, simply because its positive effects outweigh it's negatives

    and I'm saying that that influence is minimal...especially in relation to the HUGE amounts of work put out by third-wave feminists that is FAR more influential.

    just because she was writing in the 1990's doesn't mean her ideas weren't rooted in the 1970's or 80's. most of her later works weren't original anyway...they were a look back at the porn debates she was involved in during the 1980's
  4. UnbrokeN

    UnbrokeN Well-Known Member

    Jun 28, 2001
    LOLLLL!!!! no im not...i would never beat a dead horsie
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