Why did they make the 90s camaros and trans am firebirds so UGLY?

Discussion in 'Car & Audio' started by VishTaphney, Feb 2, 2007.

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  1. Snikka

    Snikka Vision Action Execution

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    You could still probably find a c5 z06 for a better price. z06 > sti

    TRY to remember we're talking abut a pushrod engine that's ALREADY at least 9 years old and still holding its own against new shit. (97' C5 had the first ls1)

    American quality will only get better (as has been proven) and faster (as has been proven)

    fuck that the burden of proof is on you.. You cant PROVE to me that euro is BETTER than american on a performance tip.

    the new corvettes will continue to do my talking on the performance aspect (and thats my major point). Lots of domestics can PERFORM when setup properly. once you add a modified car into the mix, all bets are off.

    high performance at a reasonable price. Thats what the people want. American just defines by straight line. and thats what some enthusiasts are looking for. powerband. high torque. modability. good factory setup, styling. pricing. (vettes, evos, etc. etc.)

    It's really hard to compare a Vette to a Porsche/Lambo/Ferrari (I GET IT FOLKS). totally different cars/driver mentality. but it's not like there isn't porsches that a much lower cost domestic wouldnt/couldn't lay waste to (if looking at actual price ranges).
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  2. Snikka

    Snikka Vision Action Execution

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  3. Ben Official

    Ben Official Active Member

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    Lol... dude.... WE GET IT . you keep bringing up the same point: that some domestic cars have the capability to easily outperform most euro cars for a much cheaper price. thats not the point man. this is common knowledge.

    the reason the redneck shit keeps getting brought up is, well, a lot of people, like myself, see it as a trashy looking car you'd probably see a lot of rednecks and southern farmers boys in. thats just the image we personally see it as. its just an opinion though. i know plenty of people who hate the body style of my car and think its butt ugly. but you love your car obviously so it should mean nothing to you what we think.

    its common sense that it will cost way less to buy a domestic car and have it outperform a euro.

    NOT EVERYBODY GOES FOR JUST PERFORMANCE! I've said this at least once in every post but you keep mentioning the same points which makes me think your not getting the point.

    vettes are fucking RAW. dont get me wrong. to me its one of the only domestic cars that actually has a dope exterior appearance. its got the dope appearance and a killer performer, but you'll learn to be a damn good mechanic if you own most of these domestic cars. plus interior styling, engineering, and comfort, among other things are more important to a lot of people than strictly performance. i'm done lol, i'm just repeating myself with every post. thats as far as i'll go with this point.
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  4. Ben Official

    Ben Official Active Member

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    to me, class > speed.
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  5. Snikka

    Snikka Vision Action Execution

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    dude are you honestly retarded... seriously.. let me clarify. you own a stock 99' M3.

    how you gonna start ranting about class and who and who doesn't drive GM powered vehicles. or AMERICAN vehicles rather. So now you're a low class bum if you drive a domestic vehicle IN America? wow. thats crazy logic.

    and don't even say that stupid ignorant shit about reliability and "you'll become a great mechanic"

    I swear. you ricers on the internet.


    I mean, I traded a 98' lexus es300 when I bought my 01'. so your argument of class > speed is about as stupid to me as european > american. ask rippy why he traded his BMW
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  6. Snikka

    Snikka Vision Action Execution

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    Interesting.

    true, they are.

    You buy a performance car to perform. what was your argument again?
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  7. Sprinta_01

    Sprinta_01 can't deny the skillz....

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    where's the Viper love at?
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  8. Tigre

    Tigre Ax Me About Ebonics

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    LOL correct me if I am wrong who said anything about modified... you just mentioned a Modified suspension T/A... you do realize this right? Fine since we are doing that I am going to start mentioning modified Euro's and Imports for now on..lol

    Fine since we throw names around I will say George Follmer???? Anyway good to know a car acts better with modified parts. Especially when the Miata is the most dominate car ever in C. stock division SCCA events.

    Also if anyone was to talk about SCCA and dominate drivers in an American car, atleast name Mark D.
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  9. Snikka

    Snikka Vision Action Execution

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    I'm not defending SCCA, I'm defending what IS possible on a track from an f-body car.

    yeah well you figure 900-1000 bucks for a springs/shock suspension package is NOT bad considering the actual price difference from buying an STI. (referring to STI because thats what we were discussing)

    My car is clearly more setup for the straights. but you'd be foolish to think an f-body cant be modified to perform in other categories that it wasnt great at from stock, like handling.

    Theres guys with hundreds upon hundreds of passes at the track on the stock rear 10-b0lt while being highly modded.. and us gm guys all know the 10-b0lt rear sucks as a stock part and for drag racing and high rpm launching. but, yet, am I gonna say it's a defective shitty GM part? Yes and No. Mine hasnt failed.

    so I talk modified because thats how most of guys run. How many stock supras are out there.
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  10. Snikka

    Snikka Vision Action Execution

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    I got love for the snakes. I'm TRYING to maintain as an enthusiast and not a total GM loyalist.. it's rough.

    a baddass car is a badass car

    guys on here will TALK DOWN a viper cause it's American.
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  11. Tigre

    Tigre Ax Me About Ebonics

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    A high liter V8 vs a turbo flat 4... really? so that makes a vette that much more special, cause it is an older engine? Fine we will compare a 10 yr old 2jz, or how bout a 10 yr old RB26DETT.. would that suffice this argument? Thise engines hold their own against present day competition as well.


    Since when has it ever been considered good????

    And who hasn't become better and faster... that is just basic logic. Hell even Hyundai has proven your statement.


    Why is the burden on me.... if it is so easy to prove I thought you would jump at the chance to voice your opinion. I will give it a shot then.

    Alright what do I need to prove, that the engineering is better or what? How come a BMW can take a 3.0lt I6 can turn 333hp, when a 4.6lt V8 only turns 300? How come a 5.0lt v10 makes just as much as a 7.0lt v8 and why does a viper need 3.8 more liters to produce about the same amount of hp? How does the e92 M3 4.0v8 make 420hp and the RS4 make 420 with a 4.2lt.. I mean the engineering alone is more impressive than what american engineers get from their cars. But that is just one point.

    Alright tell me cars upon a performance basis which would include:
    Slalom
    1/4
    braking
    track driving (Willow, Laguna, nurburgring)
    and so forth...

    Since when has straight line performance been the deciding factor of performance? Straight line driving proves = NOTHING in terms of performance capabilities.
    Driving on a track does. Cause with track driving you must utilize, braking, high speed cornering, straight line acceleration, clutch strength.. all in all the best way to test the capabilities of a cars PERFORMANCE. Why do you think Vette took their car to Nurburgring. Why do you think they spent ALL DAY at the track. To utilize how well of a performance car they actually built. Cause at the end of the day after true performance tests, only euros are standing up to the sterenous tests.

    I will list all the European performance cars, you list all your American ones. Then we will see whom has the best. I will go first

    Lotus Elise/ Exige
    Porsche Carrera S/Cayman S/911 turbo/GT2/GT3/GT
    Ferrari 430/Enzo
    Bugatti
    Audi S4/S6/S8/RS4/RS6
    BMW M3/M3CSL/M5/M6
    Benz c55/c63/clk55/clk63/slk55/sl55/SL65/S55/S65/SLR
    Lambo Gallardo/Murci
    Aston Martin Vantage


    These are all recent cars.. your turn.

    I think you would have a better argument with Imports vs Domestics...



    LOL correction that is what AMERICAN enthusiasts are looking for. Fuck that, I meant to sayl that is what drag racing enthusiasts are looking for. How can you say that is what enthusiasts are looking for.. that makes absolutely no sense. Thus the reason ppl buy, Porsches, M series, RS, S, Lotus, EVO RS, STi's..etc. I guess those aren't real enthusiasts since they want the ENTIRE spectrum of performance driving. Maybe you need to start driving more than just a muscle car and then you can appreciate what real performance driving is about.


    Look most reasonable ppl know you can't compare a vette to a high end super car, it is not fair for the vette and definitely not fair for the other car. The reason the Vette is 75g's and not 175g's is because of quality and luxury. Yes I do mean quality, I haven't heard of a Porsche's..etc, roof flying off..... I did and saw the picture of the Z06 though :D
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  12. Tigre

    Tigre Ax Me About Ebonics

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    First, anything is possible with any car modifed... You can spend little money on a neon and make it run respectable times...

    how do you talk modified here, but in your other post you don't want to talk modified. You talk about it when it agrees to your argument. But thats cool.

    If you think a modified T/A will go up against a STi, or even better an EVO... I would pay good money to see that race. Matter of fact I have been in that race. Although I was in the stock class with my EVO and had no problems with any T/A or what have you. I will say the Z06 was a handful lol....
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  13. Tigre

    Tigre Ax Me About Ebonics

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    Nope, not if they are being honest.. Probably one of the nastiest cars I have ever driven was a RT/10... had my coming to Jesus moments in that car. In terms of performance you can deny what that car can do.
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  14. Snikka

    Snikka Vision Action Execution

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    Tigre, seriously. I mean go ahead and list off your favorite euros and all I have to say is I'd take a z06 and be content with 10's for under 80k

    I could go dig up track results and durability tests, but it's just pointless. hundred thousands of owners are out there that agree, you can have your overpriced euros.

    Lets start with any events the C6-R has performed in, least I looked it was standing with Porsche in durability by actual finishing races (unlike Ferrari) and holds among the top world class track cars produced at a price thats' unbeatable. I could care less that you think having an overpriced car make its better.

    I mean. an stock evo doesn't have remotely as good of a stock powerband as an ls1 from 2500-6500. the handling in some of the cars you mention is NOT DOUBTED. but at least compare a firebird/camaro to cars that would have been similarly priced. 28-32k 6 years ago. and NOTHING comes close.

    every performance car gets respect from me in it's own right. and yet you sit here and continue to try and PROVE that euro is better than american.

    I find it hard to believe you're even from this country. I prefer the sound of a v8 to that of a whiny 4 banger. I prefer instant power and not turbo lag. I like torque.

    It's not fair to compare Ferrari's to Corvettes.. I agree with you. But you refuse to compare apples to apples.

    lets talk about the American legacy of muscle cars. Where does the racing heritage start for the Supra (2 fast 2 furious)? how about your Evo? Not even comparable to the legacy the firebird/camaro/corvette have on the American car enthusiasts. Euro's have always been answered by American performance.
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  15. Snikka

    Snikka Vision Action Execution

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    [​IMG]
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  16. Snikka

    Snikka Vision Action Execution

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    again, it's like WHY do euro's utilize turbo and forced induction, WHY do bugatti's utilize a 16 cylinder engine, WHY do many euro's also utilize bigger displacement.

    gotta get the power adder from somewhere.

    listing a bunch of the top performance Euro cars didn't win your argument. But I agree those are all known performance cars.
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  17. Snikka

    Snikka Vision Action Execution

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    and GM / Ford / Dodge are all making money on their performance cars such as Viper, Corvette, and GT500. so they must be doing somthing right.
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  18. Snikka

    Snikka Vision Action Execution

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  19. Snikka

    Snikka Vision Action Execution

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    King of the Nurburing


    6:59 --- Ferrari 312T, Niki Lauda, German GP, training (1975)
    7:06 --- Ferrari 312T, Clay Regazzoni, German GP, race (1975)
    *1.2m longer circuit than standard Nordschleife

    6:11 --- Porsche 956, Group C, Stefan Bellof, training (1983)
    6:26 --- Porsche 956, Group C, Stefan Bellof, race (1983)
    6:41 --- Porsche 956, Group C, Derek Bell
    7:50 --- BMW X5 Le Mans V12, Hans Stuck (2001)
    *0.232 km longer than current, standard Nordschleife


    7:06 --- BMW M3 GTR, 24hrs, test session, Jörg Müller (2003)
    7:18.1-- Donkervoort D8 RS (12/2004)
    7:19 --- Radical SR3 Turbo (2003), >>> Link
    7:20* -- Opel Astra DTM V8 Coupe, set-up for 24hrs race (sport auto 2003) *estimated
    7:25 --- Alzen Motorsport Porsche 996, 24hrs race, Uwe Alzen
    7:28 --- Porsche Carrera GT, Walther Röhrl, Autobild July 2004 >>> Link
    7:32.4 -- Porsche Carrera GT, definitive time by Horst Von Saurma
    7:32.5 - Gemballa Porsche GTR 600 EVO, Wolfgang Kaufmann (2001) >>> Link
    7:36 --- Porsche Carrera GT, factory test driver Walther Röhrl (2002)
    7:40* -- Porsche Carrera GT, *estimated time on cold and partially wet track (2003)
    7:40 --- Mercedes Benz McLaren SLR, Klaus Ludwig, Autobild July 2004 >>> Link
    7:42 --- Radical 1500 SR3 (2002)
    7:43 --- 2006 Corvette Z06 <-------- stock/unmodified
    7:43 --- TechArt GT Street (2001)
    7:43 --- Porsche 996 911 GT3 RS, factory test driver Walter Rohrl, MOTOR Magazine
    7:43.5 - Lamborghini Murcielago (Autocar magazine, 2002)
    7:44 --- Pagani Zonda C12S (07/2003)
    7:45 --- Gemballa Porsche GTR 600 (12/2000)
    7:46 --- Porsche 996 GT2
    7:46 --- SHK Porsche 993 GT2, 652 PS (1999)
    7:47 --- Porsche 996 GT3 RS, 381PS (996) (2004)
    7:49 --- Porsche 996 GT3 Cup
    7:50 --- BMW E46 M3 CSL (08/2003)
    7:50 --- Blitz Supra, 750 PS, Herbert Schürg (1997)
    7:50 --- Honda RC30, Helmut Daehne (1993)
    7:50 --- Lamborghini Murcielago (06/2002)
    7:52 --- Gemballa Porsche 911 Le Mans (1995)
    7:52 --- Lamborghini Gallardo E-Gear (12/2003)
    7:52 --- Mercedes Benz SLR McLaren (06/2004)
    7:54 --- Porsche GT3 (996) (2003)
    7:55 --- Caterham R500 Superlight (2002)
    7:56 --- Ferrari 360 Challenge Stradale (02/2004)
    7:56 --- Porsche 996 Turbo
    7:56 --- Honda NSX-R - Motoharu Kurosawa, Best MOTORing
    7:56 --- Chevrolet Corvette CE Z06 >>> link
    7:56 --- Chevrolet Corvette C6 (tested by Dave Hill)
    7:57 --- Lotec Porsche 993 Turbo, 600 PS, racing suspension
    7:59 --- Porsche 911 Carrera S (997) (Performance Chassis) (Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004)
    8:02 --- Porsche 911 Carrera S (997) (Sport PASM setting) (Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004)
    8:03 --- Porsche 996 GT3 (1999)
    8:04 --- Lamborghini Diablo GT (07/2000)
    8:05 --- Ferrari 575M Maranello F1 (12/2002)
    8:05 --- Porsche 911 Carrera S (997) (Normal PASM setting)(Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004)
    8:06 --- Mercedes Benz SL55 AMG
    8:06 --- Caterham 7 Superlight R, Robert Nearn
    8:06 --- Subaru Impreza Sti spec C - Motoharu Kurosawa, Best MOTORing
    8:07 --- Ferrari 550 Maranello (06/1998)
    8:09 --- Honda NSX-R 3.2 (08/2002)
    8:09 --- Ferrari 360 Modena (10/1999)
    8:09 --- Lamborghini Diablo SV (no ABS?)
    8:10 --- Chrysler Viper GTS, 411PS, UK-Spec, no ABS (10/1997)
    8:10 --- Donkervoort D8 180R
    8:11 --- Mitsubishi Lancer EVO IX (video here)
    8:12 --- Mercedes Benz SL55 AMG (04/2002)
    8:12 --- Porsche 993 Turbo
    8:13 --- Lotus Esprit Sport 350, 354 PS (05/1999)
    8:13 --- Dodge Viper SRT-10, 506 PS (10/2004)
    8:13 --- BMW M5 (E60) (12/2004)
    8:15 --- Ruf 911 CTR 2, 520 PS
    8:15*-- Holden GTS (2000), *estimated
    8:15 --- Porsche 911 Carrera 2 (997) (Walter Rohrl - WHEELS June 2004)
    8:16 --- AC-Schnitzer E36 M3 CLS II, 350 PS (11/1997)
    8:16 --- AC Schnitzer Z4 V8 Topster (01/2005)
    8:17 --- Aston Martin Vanquish (2003)
    8:17 --- Porsche 996 C2
    8:18 --- BMW Z8, 400 PS (08/2000)
    8:18 --- Chevrolet Corvette Z05 Commemorative Edition, 344 PS (09/2003)
    8:18 --- Ferrari F355 (06/1997)
    8:20 --- Audi RS6 (2002)
    8:22 --- BMW E46 M3 (12/2000)
    8:22 --- BMW M Coupe, 321 PS (10/1998)
    8:22 --- Mercedes-Benz C55 (07/2004)
    8:23 --- Aston Martin DB7 GT (2003)
    8:23 --- Porsche 996 Carrera 4
    8:24 --- Subaru Impreza WRX STi (2004)
    8:25 --- Audi RS4 375 HP
    8:25 --- Callaway C12
    8:25 --- Mitsubishi Carisma GT Evo VI (11/1999)
    8:25 --- Mitsubishi Carisma GT Evo VII (11/2002)
    8:26 --- Mercedes Benz SLK 32 AMG (05/2001)
    8:26 --- Nissan 350Z (2003)
    8:28 --- BMW M5, 400 PS(also confirmed by Motor Commodore magazine, 2000)
    8:28 --- Nissan Skyline GTR, 277 PS
    8:28 --- Porsche 993 Carrera 2
    8:29 --- Mercedes Benz CLK 55 AMG (05/2000)
    8:29 --- Audi S4 4.2 Avant (11/2003)
    8:30 --- Maserati Coupé Cambiocorsa (10/2002)
    8:31 --- Ferrari F355 GTS, 380 PS
    8:32 --- BMW M Roadster, 321 PS (09/1997)
    8:32 --- BMW Z4 3.0 SMG (05/2003)
    8:32 --- Porsche Boxster S
    8:32 --- Volkswagen Golf R32
    8:34 --- Acura NSX, 276 PS
    8:34 --- BMW Z3 Coupé 3.0i, 231 PS (04/2001)
    8:35 --- BMW M3 Coupe, 321 PS
    8:35 --- Brabus-Mercedes Benz C V8 Sportcoupé (02/2002)
    8:35 --- BMW 130i >>> Link
    8:36 --- BMW E36 M3 EVO, 321 PS
    8:36 --- Alpina-BMW B3 3.3 Coupé (07/1999)
    8:37 --- Maserati 3200GT (2002)
    8:37 --- Mercedes Benz C32 AMG (09/2001)
    8:37 --- Nissan Skyline GTR V-Spec, 350 PS
    8:37 --- Subaru Impreza GT Turbo
    8:37 --- Honda NSX 3.0 (07/1991)
    8:38 --- Honda NSX 3.2 (08/1997)
    8:38 --- Mercedes Benz SL500 (12/2001)
    8:38 --- Porsche 996 Carrera, 296 PS
    8:38 --- Brabus-Mercedes Benz CLK 5.8 (12/1998)
    8:39 --- Honda S2000 (01/2000)
    8:39 --- Morgan Aero 8 (04/2003)
    8:40 --- Holden GTS, on an in and out lap (2000)
    8:40 --- Chevrolet Corvette C5 Targa Automatic (07/1997)
    8:41 --- Aston Martin DB7 (1999)
    8:41 --- Audi S3, 210 PS (06/1999)
    8:42 --- Audi S4, 265 PS (08/1998)
    8:42 --- Lotus Exige (11/2000)
    8:43 --- Honda Integra Type R (12/2000)
    8:44 --- Chevrolet Corvette C5
    8:45 --- Chevrolet Corvette, 339 PS, automatic
    8:46 --- Porsche 993 Carrera S, 285 PS
    8:47 --- Honda Civic Type-R, 200 PS (11/2001)
    8:49 --- Jaguar XKR Coupe (07/1998)
    8:49 --- Renault Clio Sport V6
    8:49 --- Audi TT 1.8T quattro Coupé, 225 PS (11/1998)
    8:50* -- Mercedes Benz E55 AMG (2000)
    8:51 --- Mercedes Benz C43 AMG (02/1998)
    8:52 --- Mercedes Benz CLK 430
    8:58 --- Lotus Esprit Turbo SE (07/1991)
    9:09 --- Volkswagen Golf V6 4Motion
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  20. BoardWalk

    BoardWalk it's a monopoly.

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    lol @ "the roof came off"

    this dude acts like that was an engineering malfunction.

    I've read NUMEROUS stories of guys not locking their t-tops down and them flying off at 70-90mph.. shit is crazy

    that's called user error and/or a freak accident, NOT a common problem or a chain related incident. fuck outa here with that.

    the z06 is ALL race parts, everything from the engine hand-build up. all quaiity everything. You'd be dilusional to think otherwise.

    sure, i can take a 2.0 liter motor, turbo it, and get 450 hp if its built from the ground up. thats respectable. now, i can take a 5.7 liter ls1, build it up, and get 1200 hp. thats crazy. ill take my displacement.
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