Why BJJ as a fighter's primary grappling martial art is ineffective in today's UFC

Discussion in 'MMA, Boxing & Other Combat Sports' started by SeeSon, May 26, 2009.

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  1. SeeSon

    SeeSon New Member

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    I think that in today's world of MMA, any fighter whose grappling art is BJJ is going to be at a disadvantage unless he is world class (ie. Maia). There are exceptions, but for the most part the UFC is dominated by fighters with a wrestling base. I think the reason for this isn't the octagon vs. a ring or anything like that. I think the reason is that BJJ is every above avg fighters baseline. Even great wrestlers must know BJJ sub defense, even if they can't sub anyone themselves. I think the Gracies were successful with their campaign to get BJJ to where it is today, because in order to even hope to be a great MMA fighter you must know BJJ. With a few exceptions though, I don't know if we will ever see the majority of elite level fighters using BJJ as their primary grappling martial art.

    Thoughts?
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  2. SeeSon

    SeeSon New Member

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    No worries, I'll have a conversation with myself. After talking to a friend about it. I think a lot of it has to do with the level of bjj players that the UFC gets. For the most part, the great wrestlers were all D1 level wrestlers which is to say elite wrestlers. Whereas the BJJ players aren't necessarily the elite BJJ players. The Elite BJJ players still do well in MMA (BJ, and Maia).
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  3. ANDtheMC

    ANDtheMC New Member

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    It's also because a lotta these MMA guys don't train MMA jiu-jitsu... They train with gi's most of the time and it's different in an MMA environment where sweat and strikes are involved... But jiu-jitsu is still a base. EVERY SINGLE FIGHTER IN MMA NEEDS A BASE OF JIU-JITSU OR THEY WILL NOT LAST A ROUND.

    But the rubber guard is really going to change this in the next decade. It's slowly going to revolutionize the guard again and fighters are going to be scared of taking fighters down that mastered the rubber guard. Dustin Hazelett is one of the scariest with the rubber guard right now.
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  4. Odysseus

    Odysseus a marvelous muthafucka

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    ^yes true... mma BJJ is different than traditional BJJ cuz of all the stuff u named, gloves, etc... the basics are always neccesary tho. then again the basics of today were the advanced techniques of yesterday. BJJ is evolving in and outside of MMA.

    thats why some guys can be godly in the sport of BJJ but still be handled on the ground in MMA.... and then again some other guys have that godly BJJ where ever... some guys are just better at adapting it to MMA
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  5. ANDtheMC

    ANDtheMC New Member

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    It usually just means the punches aren't effecting them as much and mixing blocking, striking, with attempting submissions. I've used jiu-jitsu in real fights before (1 on 1's... would be stupid to do it in a brawl) but it's obviously VERY different from getting hit f'real (even worse without gloves) and going for sweeps and leg locks which can sometimes leave your face open for strikes. I think the rubber guard is brilliant tho'. I would love to learn that 10th planet system in the future.

    When I saw what Dustin Hazelett did to Tamdan Mcrory... I was like... DAMN! That was so easy, yet sick.
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  6. Mac Sabbath

    Mac Sabbath New Member

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    Taking this a step further, what I've noticed is that anybody that isn't really good at AT LEAST one discipline will have a tough time. Look at Forrest Griffin. Tough as nails, but there isn't any one area where he has the clear cut advantage over a good number of his division.

    Think of all of the important fighters, and they all excel in at least one area. Fedor - grappling ace. Anderson - bjj and muay thai. GSP - wrestling. BJ - jiu jits. etc.

    There are still a lot of jiu jits experts being hyped and built up, but we all know that it takes some serious cross training or their fights will always be nail biters. I really like Maia, but he's going to get Aoki'd eventually.
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  7. Big K

    Big K U Wanna Battle?

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    There are two main reasons, IMO.

    Athletic wrestlers willing to crosstrain: Good wrestlers are fucking hard to sweep without crosstraining, and seem to pick up submission defense from top position pretty quickly. If you can't stop the takedown, can't take them down, and have a very hard time sweeping or submitting someone, prepare for a TKO loss or a long night of getting beat up from guard.

    Influence of sport BJJ over practical MMA grappling: This namely applies to the overempesis of the guard. One MUST know how to fight off of their back, but one must also know that fighting off of your back isn't always the smartest option. Fighting someone like Fedor or GSP with the gameplan of playing guard is absolute suicide. Guard players, no matter how good, will eat a few big shots. Wrestlers heavily practice getting back up after being taken down. BJJ guys...not so much. While arts such as Judo, SAMBO, and catch/shoot wrestling work a ton on takedowns/throws as well as submissions, I've know BJJ guys who admit they'll ALWAYS pull guard. I've even heard of BJJ classes that start grappling from the knees. Anyone like this will have a very rocky transition into MMA, while someone like Jacare(an athletic dude with a solid a Judo black belt) should do fine.
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  8. Big K

    Big K U Wanna Battle?

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    As for rubber guard, I don't really see the hype. Rogan/Bravo have done a brilliant job of using the position in the UFC to constantly market 10PJJ, but I don't see it doing so well results wise in MMA, or even pure submission grappling competitions. Occasionally it will lead to a submission when there is a HUGE gap it submission grappling skills amongst the competitors, but that's about it.
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  9. ANDtheMC

    ANDtheMC New Member

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    I don't think Maia's gonna get "Aoki'd" because the different with him is that he can pull guard and always manage to end up on top. He has the best jiu-jitsu sweeps I've seen in MMA.

    And Fedor isn't only a grappling ace. He's an everything ace. That's why he stands out from the rest, IMO. But I agree with you for the most part.
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  10. ANDtheMC

    ANDtheMC New Member

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    I disagree with this. I've seen it effectively used against other jiu-jitsu guys that are pretty damn good at jiu-jitsu themselves. It's just that most people in MMA haven't mastered it yet. But I do think it is the future for jiu-jitsu.

    Here you go... Perfect example... AND AGAIN, McCrory's jiu-jitsu is very formidable.

    http://www.mma linker.com/xExternal.php?vidid=10134

    Remove the space.
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  11. Chamberfool

    Chamberfool HAhahAHahaHAhahaHhaha

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    it always changes.

    people said the same shit about karate until MAchida showed the advantages of using some of it's intricacies.

    MMA is not about BBJ against wrestling or boxing VS kickboxing.

    its about using it all together to become a complete fighter.

    foor a wrestler to be well versed in submission defense means how important BJJ is to know.

    once people starting trumpeting shit like "bjj is not effective anymore" is the day that people throw it to the side and then champs come out of people tossing armbars on motherfuckers all day. its about evolution. its always evolving.
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  12. Big K

    Big K U Wanna Battle?

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    The hype to results ratio is out of wack, IMO. Yes, I've seen McCrory vs. Hazlett. Formattable doesn't mean a whole lot vs. a black belt, though. The last black belt Hazlett faced in Tony de Souza subbed him.

    It would be pretty much impossible to "master" something in an ever evolving sport. If there's one person who could really be considered the absolute best at it was Nino Schembri, who was doing it a while before anyone had ever heard called it "rubber guard", and he wasn't able to accomplish much with it in MMA.

    It might be easier for it to be adapted to MMA if it's figurehead weren't so lazy. Bravo has admitted he's too lazy to even train for submission grappling competitions, rather yet MMA.

    Aoki and Hazlett are the only two successfully using it now, and it's really on inferior grapplers. I already discussed Hazlett. Aoki is a fucking prodigy, though. Like a lot of Japanese, he was able to hold his own on the ground and even sub some good BJJ guys with only his Judo training. He's been able to successfully use rubber guard, de la Riva guard(on a black belt none the less)...just tons of crazy stuff.

    We're definitely disagreeing on this, but if Aoki is able to beat Shaolin using the rubber guard, I might just see your PoV.
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  13. ANDtheMC

    ANDtheMC New Member

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    That doesn't say much because I've seen black belts subbed by plenty of other black belts (rubber guard or not). And the reston you say the ratio is out of wack is because not many people use the rubber guard correctly. Eddie Bravo didn't create the rubber guard but he modified it and corrected a lot of the weaknesses in it. It's still evolving but I think the 10th planet/Eddie Bravo system is the most effective that I've seen. I've seen people using the rubber guard completely wrong in MMA fights. People grabbing their foot instead of high ankle and grabbing over instead of under. Little things change everything... Hazelett is one of the du's I've seen use it effectively and correctly, based on what I've read and seen on the system.

    I think it's Hazelett who has the best rubber guard I've seen in MMA. Aoki's pretty good with it too... Even Bravo said he thinks Hazelett had the best rubber guard he seen in UFC and that most du's he's seen try to use it used a flawed version of it.

    haha... I could never see Eddie Bravo actually fighting in the octagon. But I have watched videos of him rolling and he is pretty damn incredible.

    Oh... I didn't even read this part before my response. But yeah... Def'nitely Aoki and Hazelett.

    Yeah, Aoki is damn good with the rubber guard but I still think Hazelett's is better. It's more controlling and active/dangerous. Aoki just really uses it for control (from what I've seen).
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  14. Mac Sabbath

    Mac Sabbath New Member

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    I really can't call him a striking ace. He has his niche and it works well, but I don't know how well he'd do against one of the Klitschkos in a boxing bout. I just stuck with grappling ace because I feel he could at least hang with the best grapplers in any grappling competition, without the rest of his game to fall back on.
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  15. ANDtheMC

    ANDtheMC New Member

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    Like I was saying in the other thread... Obviously, he's not going to beat the Klitschkos in a BOXING BOUT. But in MMA, he is an elite striker. In an MMA environment, I could EASILY see him knocking out the Klitschkos. Why? Because they will have to worry about the clench... Kicks... Punches... Takedowns... Submissions... Smaller gloves... So at the end of the day, would Fedor be able to knock out one of the Klitschkos in an MMA environment (the realer version of fighting).... I THINK SO.

    That would be like saying Anderson Silva isn't an elite striker because he wouldn't beat Roy Jones Jr. in a boxing match... But obviously, in an MMA environment, he'd DESTROY Jones Jr. Get what I'm sayin'? So at the end of the day... He's still an elite striker.
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