Discussion in 'Ladies Lounge' started by Speedy Gunzalez, Apr 28, 2005.
pretty straight foward....
because a lot of women see the benefits of being feminine and feminists rarely point out anything good about it, because to do that (however true it may be), would not be pushing their agenda.
Because it's gay'ish to a certain extent that some ignoramus folks think that all of us are "anti-men."
Since the word feminist is someone who derives their life on the social, political, and economic equality of the sexes, I dont mind being called a feminist. I believe women are just as equal as men & should have the same rights. Im sure most women would say the same thing.
I think its the extremist women feminist who have given the real one a bad name, being anti-men, etc. That's not a real feminists. those people are exreme.
^^^agreed...yea i think its def those extremists that make us think of feminists in such a bad way...i dont have a problem with feminism...but its when those psychos get all crazy that im just not sure what to think...so yea...feminism = good...extremists = bad
Not necessarily.... Most feminists would call for a reconceptualization of what being feminine means, not a complete eradication.
Further, it seems you are homogenizing feminists. Are you familiar with feminist literature? If not, here's a summation of some of the main points from feminists thought:
I hope this enriches your understanding of feminism.
Most? where do u get ya figures from? moreover, what are the proposed conditions of the new and improved femininity? i.e. how does it work. I am really keen to hear from feminists which parts of being feminine they believe to be worth keeping and which are not. I believe I asked you once before. In regards to homegenizing feminists, I am aware that there are different feminist perspectives, radical, marxist etc, but they can all be reduced down to to one thing in terms of what they are trying to discern, and that is inequality.
Thanks for the Links.
I'm not... my mom calls me "a little feminist" all the time... I couldn't care less.
I think some women either 1) have the wrong idea about what feminism is 2) don't want to alienate themselves from men 3) don't want the stigmatism attached to the word "feminist" (i.e. man-hater, butch, radical, etc.).
I should have added "I contend that most feminists..." Basically, this is my perception based on the feminist thought reading that I've done. And to rework what is means to be feminine, some feminists would argue that to the extent that docility, submissiveness, and being subordinate to men equates to some degree of being feminine than agressiveness, strong-mindedness, and independent should be deemed feminine.
You're welcome for the link, my friend emailed it to me and there was info on that webpage that I did not know. I'm considering purchashing that book.
Can you explain a little why you are not feminist?
I think she meant that she is not scared to be one, heh
Oh, thanks for pointing that out...lol.
My bad tight-eyes.
This has difficulties because the examples of what should be added to what it means to be feminine are obscure and perhaps impractical. Additionally,some of them may or may not already be associated with women.
1.) by no means do all men believe that the role of women and femininity equates to weak-minds. Infact I have heard men claim that women are the 'stronger sex'. But regardless of what men think, women are strong minded and that is not easy to definately remove from femininity.
2.) aggresivness may not be a productive attribute to associate with masculinity or femininity. Also, It does not seem to sit well with being feminine, though there is no doubting that some women are aggresive the majority are not.
3.) apart from economic independance, tell me why independance whether directed towards men or women is beneficial. Linking independance and femininity encourages women whom are feminine to believe that they do not need men. Neither man or woman can function well completely 'independant' of anyone else. Especially when the other party is who you cannot live and survive without.
These characteristics exist in both men and women, but that is not what I am arguing. Instead, the aforementioned characteristics have been exclusively assigned to women when that is not at all accurate.
By no means am I suggesting that ALL men believe this. I am elucidating the ideas that are predominant in society concerning how women are expected to behave. It would be ludicrous to suggest that every single male thinks like this, however, through the media, education, and socialization men and women are taught how to behave. I am maintaining that these influences change what they are imparting on the population.
Of course they are not. I would contend that it is because of external influences that dictate how people should perform their gender which creates outward behavior. If a little girl is dressed in pink, bought barbie dolls, clothed in dresses and skirts, watches other people conform to the same process then it would naturally follow a majority of people would behave in the same way.
What is the supposition you are making when saying that aggressiveness "does not seem to sit well with being feminine"? And what is this supposition based on?
Independence should be promoted to tell women that they have another option outside of being dependent on a man, not necessarily being anti-men. Economic independence does not discourage relations with men because you are assuming that relationships are economically tied (which some are, but many are not).
you say that you are not arguing that point, but I say that it is the
whole point and without putting this difficulty in the forefront then
you must face the possibilty of reaching the wrong conclusion.if you
cannot be sure where the characteristics definately reside, then how
can you indefinatley say where they have been assigned or moreso how
they are detrimental to femininity?
but you are going against a system of which 'norms' you have not
established, nor can measure because there are exceptions to both.
it seems that you are using generalisations to establish the
conditioned behaviour of women, yet when these same sweeping
generalisations are used to show any possible innate feminine behaviour they are quickly disregarded. You are not presenting any fixed 'norms' yet you are adminant about what femininity needs.i.e independance, strong mindedness etc.
you mean, if she is presented in pink as a symbol of femininity then she automatically loses all those charachteristics which you said femininity was lacking?
I say agressive as loosely as you used it. However, I base the assumption On a sweeping generalisation of female behaviour.The majority of women are not aggressive I have observed.
I feel throughout this post you often haven't really adressed what I have said, but maybe I am just tired or we have a crossed wire somewhere.
Feminine independance which you propose promotes a seperateness that isn't healthy for men or women. It creates an anti-men atmosphere whether you like it or not. Why? Because it promotes the opposite of what people often need. dependency. Women will always be naturally dependant on a man for children and vice versa.
Moreover, I did not say that the relationships were necesserily economically tied.you assumed i did. apart from the economic independance, which is a good for both men and women, I cannot see the benefit of any other, because it promotes women and men being apart. independantly living and we weren't built for that.
I don't think you've understood the majority of what I presented to you. I have some work to do tonight, but I'll come back tommorrow to clarify my points.
I enjoy our dialogue BBG, this one should be interesting as well.
BBG was right... I meant that I'm not afraid to be labeled as one... lol.
"Feminists believe that history was written from a male point of view and does not reflect women's role in making history and structuring society. Male-written history has created a bias in the concepts of human nature, gender potential, and social arrangements. The language, logic, and structure of the law are male created and reinforce male values. By presenting male's characteristics as a "norm" and females characteristics as deviation from the "norm" the prevailing conceptions of law reinforce and perpetuate patriarchal power. Feminists challenge the belief that the biological make-up of men and women is so different that certain behavior can be attributed on the basis of sex. Gender, feminists say, is created socially, not biologically. Sex determines such matters as physical appearance and reproductive capacity, but not psychological, moral, or social traits.
Though feminists share common commitments to equality between men and women, feminist jurisprudence is not uniform. There are three major schools of thought within feminist jurisprudence. Traditional, or liberal, feminism asserts that women are just as rational as men and therefore should have equal opportunity to make their own choices. Liberal feminists challenge the assumption of male authority and seek to erase gender based distinctions recognized by law thus enabling women to compete in the marketplace.
Another school of feminist legal thought, cultural feminists, focuses on the differences between men and women and celebrates those differences. Following the research of psychologist Carol Gilligan, this group of thinkers asserts that women emphasize the importance of relationships, contexts, and reconciliation of conflicting interpersonal positions, whereas men emphasize abstract principles of rights and logic. The goal of this school is to give equal recognition to women's moral voice of caring and communal values.
Like the liberal feminist school of thought, radical or dominant feminism focuses on inequality. It asserts that men, as a class, have dominated women as a class, creating gender inequality. For radical feminists gender is a question of power. Radical feminists urge us to abandon traditional approaches that take maleness as their reference point. They argue that sexual equality must be constructed on the basis of woman's difference from man and not be a mere accommodation of that difference."
Just some interesting stuff I found here ... I fall in line somewhere with the traditional/liberal views... anyway, carry on fellas.
Feminism, the way it is practiced in America, is undercover lesbianism.
Separate names with a comma.