Who do men say that I am

Discussion in 'The Sanctuary' started by TheBigPayback, Apr 18, 2012.

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  1. Coup d'état

    Coup d'état Don't believe the hype

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    @random P.

    I'm not sure...that's an interesting notion...Like the family of Elohim. When we are reborn (on that last day, being arose from death/sleep and having walked our walk in MessiYAH and after we overcome like he did we can be called then the Childern of Elohim). When MessiYAH got baptised by John he was BOOM called the son of MAN. When Yahshuah overcame and compelted the will of the Father on earth and died and rose the 3rd day BOOM he was called the Son of Elohim, the first begotten.

    That's Deep...and I think you are on to something !
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  2. RandomPoster

    RandomPoster New Member

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    This I pretty much agree with. I agree that He is the Son and the Son is not the Father.

    I pretty much agree with everything you said after the first sentence. BUT since you made the excellent point about the word 'Him' not being in the earlier manuscripts which I was able to verify I'll deal with that below.

    Once again agree and slightly disagree. But mostly agree.

    Disagree here. I don't have a concordance on me to count all 23 times but with the limited sources I have on me currently I only count 10 times "Beginning" is used in John. You may be including his Epistles as well though and I'm not so no big deal. More importantly though of that number 4 of them could be interpreted as "Eternity Past". John 1:1, 1:2, 6:64, 8:44. Those all seem to refer to either a previous existence or a foreknowledge of future events from a pre-existent state.

    Yeah I've never seen 'logos' capitalized. I'm speaking out of ignorance here but do we really know what capital and lower case ancient Greek looks like? Most of what we consider original is really Latin translations. Also are the punctuation and capitalization inspired as well? Don't hold me to that because it's not something I think or study about much.

    This kind of hits on how I see it all but we'll get into that another time. :creepin:

    LOL!! I had a whole thing written out on how "him" didn't make sense in the context of the Law = logos etc. Then I read this and was like crap he already knows that. LOL!

    Ok here is John 1:1-14 in the Tyndale translation.

    Good find Coup. Now the Greek word translated 'it' is "autou" which can mean 'he', 'she' or 'it'. So they didn't pull the personal pronouns out of their behinds BUT I'll agree that it's like a multiple choice answer and they chose the answer that made the most sense with the doctrine they believed to be correct. John left the text very ambiguous because he was trying to be poetic and use the word "logos" as a connection to his Greek and Hebrew audience. Both groups had strong ties to the word "Word".
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  3. RandomPoster

    RandomPoster New Member

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    Oh ok I see how you got off on the Trinity now. Sorry about that. See I have to read these a few times before I can catch the flow of the conversation sometimes.

    Here are some definitions of the word "logos"

    The Philosophy one sounds pretty similar to what I remember reading in the past as the connection John was making with his Greek Audience and the Judaism sounds similar to the connection I remember reading that he was making with his Hebrew audience. It's been a while but I remember reading that the Hebrews equating Yah's Word with Yah Himself.

    You get no disagreement with me on that statement. The Father doesn't equal the Son and the Son doesn't equal the Father. Totally agree with that but there just seems to be more to the story. A higher relationship between the Father and the Son than any other being. Deut 32:39 implies that YHWH isn't sharing "God" duties with anyone. (I know you don't like that word but that was the only way I could make the point.) But the Most High having a Son who is of His likeness. Almost like the Crown Prince or something like that to use an Earthly Illustration but a Crown Prince whose King will never die or be succeeded.

    I'm going to throw this out there I told you I'm weird so if this is repeated in most circles I'd probably get laughed at and called a heretic but hey it makes sense to me so I really don't care. It seems like the Father is the Leader and the Son is His servant and as Servant he had a hand in Creation and the Father created these things for the Son. Kind of like that earthly analogy of a King putting his Prince in charge of his own kingdom. Do you notice how The Father is front and center all over the Hebrew Scriptures but in the New Testament it’s almost like “Here is my Son. Worship Him and listen to Him now.” Then you don’t see much if any “Thus sayeth Yah” statements anymore.

    Like I said I know I'm probably out there but that's fine with me wouldn't be the first time. Hahaha!
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  4. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    Elohiem is the plural name for God
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  5. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    430 'elohiym el-o-heem' plural of 433; gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:--angels, X exceeding, God (gods)(-dess, -ly), X (very) great, judges, X mighty.
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  6. Coup d'état

    Coup d'état Don't believe the hype

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    remember payback, nobody is talking to you.
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  7. Coup d'état

    Coup d'état Don't believe the hype

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    YEAH! That's what I'm thinking too...along those lines. The Father is giving the Son the Kingdom anyhow to rule over...

    Just like how we have sons and give them our stuff...We are created in their likeness afterall (YAH and Yahshuah) and in that likeness we are well...IN THAT LIKENESS...

    Awesome!
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  8. RandomPoster

    RandomPoster New Member

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    Phew I didn't know how that one was gonna go over. Hahaha!
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  9. Coup d'état

    Coup d'état Don't believe the hype

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    random are you Yahudi (Ysraelite) or Gentile ?
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  10. RandomPoster

    RandomPoster New Member

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    You'd consider me an Israelite. I'm a black guy. There are a lot of things I agree with in regards to Hebrew Israelites but there are a few things I strongly disagree with as well. It's the same way with Christianity for me. I just love the Elohim and try to find the truth in everything He allows to cross my path.
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  11. Coup d'état

    Coup d'état Don't believe the hype

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    Well, it don't matter if you like it or not...if your are an "African American" here in the US, you are in fact a Hebrew Ysraelite...

    your fore fathers are Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

    Just saying :)
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  12. RandomPoster

    RandomPoster New Member

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    Hey I'll take that man. Hahaha!
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  13. exodus 31315

    exodus 31315 Kanaan

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    somehow i overlooked this thread, sorry for the tardy reply

    i would think He always existed. obviously in a different form to the flesh He became on earth. but has always been seated next to the Father
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  14. exodus 31315

    exodus 31315 Kanaan

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    that right there is deep man, thank you, friend, for taking the time to answer me

    i almost got teary thinking about Yashua there in the desert, starving hungry, standing steadfast in the face of temptation and withstanding lucifer himself

    and ANGELS came down and COMFORTED HIM

    amazing, really, thank you

    i pray i may be as resolved in the face of my temptations. or more specifically in the facing of my worry

    i mean this makes Him so much more admirable and awesome. that he was man as i am. that knowing this he was able to defeat and resist the SAME TEMPTATIONS I FACE

    amazing
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  15. exodus 31315

    exodus 31315 Kanaan

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    great post
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  16. exodus 31315

    exodus 31315 Kanaan

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    damn, Coup your posts are deep and almost invariably lead me to some sort of revelation

    in the beginning the word was with Him

    Yashua is His WORD, Yahweh's very VOICE

    that's why He has ALWAYS BEEN WITH HIM

    amazing

    the WORD WAS MADE FLESH
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  17. exodus 31315

    exodus 31315 Kanaan

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    He (the Word) was already in existence with Yahweh because He (the Word) is Yahweh's VOICE
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  18. exodus 31315

    exodus 31315 Kanaan

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    they sure were

    this is so damn interesting, i love it
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  19. exodus 31315

    exodus 31315 Kanaan

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    holy shit that's deep as hell

    my mind is blown, my eyes are wide and my ears open
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  20. exodus 31315

    exodus 31315 Kanaan

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    well shit, this is a different line of thinking to where i was heading

    but not unreasonable at all

    and worthy of more thought, this thread is great
    test
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