ummm Atheists?

Discussion in 'IntroSpectrum' started by Radium, Apr 18, 2009.

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  1. reggie_jax

    reggie_jax rapper noyd

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    alright radium, i'll bite. recommend me a good book that atheists aren't supposed to read and i will read it.

    i have a couple books i already have to read but once im done with those i'll read whatever it is you recommend to free my mind from the bonds of atheism. try to keep in mind i have no background with philosophical literature.
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  2. Radium

    Radium f k

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    ummm... yeah ....

    *backs away slowly before breaking into a full out sprint*
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  3. x - calli

    x - calli Guest

    some atheists are reasonable, and just choose to believe differently.

    but many atheists are the kind youre thinking of - they focus on the atheism vs god debate, and they dont have much knowledge of philosophy, history, and so on. the god debate is, as far as anyone can see, not something that can be resolved. that doesnt mean that it cant be debated, but these atheists focus on the endless antagonism, and opportunity to try to flaunt thier "superior" intellect on the so called "religious sheep"

    in truth, these atheists are more rigid, dogmatic, and zealous than thier opponents. theyre sophists who are always looking for conflict and to get the upper hand, instead of really examining issues and gaining knowledge.

    as i said in the beginning, not all atheists are like this, but theres a visible group that are, and they seem to be who youre reacting to.
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  4. Knowledge

    Knowledge Guest

    *Insert stupid drunken remark here* All posts modified due to sobriety the following day
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  5. Radium

    Radium f k

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    alright first i would recommend you read the trial and death of socrates (4 dialogues) as he lays down most of his thoughts which have been the basis of all western thought up to this day

    primarily he will speak on things like the soul, forms, good/evil, that which is material/immaterial

    the only thing is that he speaks in a way that is very visual. its not cut and dry. so depending on how you interpret information you may want to go over a summary to supplement your reading. he uses mythology in examples but always always always maintains rationalism as a guiding light throughout everything. the only way to really understand socrates is to remember to read from part creative imagination and part deductive reasoning as this is how he achieves all his conclusions

    this is a basis and cornerstone of western thinking that really should be looked at by everyone

    next i would recommend spinoza's ethics which firstly proposes that god exists and goes on to examine god's nature. he argues that god as he has described is the basis of all things in reality and so from that all conclusions can be made on more specific matters for humanity in regards ultimately to that nature

    here is a summary
    Spinoza' Ethics

    this is famously sighted as the god albert einstein (and actually some other prominent figures) supposedly subscribed to
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  6. Radium

    Radium f k

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    what is really hilarious though is how aggressively they will challenge organized religion but then lack that same fighting spirit against the subject of the philosophers who have suggested metaphysical concepts in their works too
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  7. StopDrop&LOL

    StopDrop&LOL Take the RED pill

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    I'm curious what things are known non-empirically, and what the benefit of speculation on the "immaterial" is.

    And, for clarity, are you of the opinion that theists, who generally only consider/speculate on a very specific, limited portion of the "immaterial", are similarly held back by their focus?

    I'm also curious about what you said concerning Forms, Polemos. Would you care to elaborate?
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  8. Radium

    Radium f k

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    empiricism in its pure form is really a crippling way to see the world. ultimately, not everything can be known through physical proofs. some things can only be known through the process of rationalism; making conclusions about reality through a process of deductive reasoning. Essentially, empiricism is limited to just physical tests on reality as a way to understand reality whereas rationalism is based around intellectual reasoning on reality.

    for example man can't physically and definitively prove anything before the big bang and thus according to empiricism any conclusions aimed towards figuring that problem out are worthless since physical testing is impossible (rendering any scientific speculation or otherwise void from the start regardless of truth or falsity)

    ultimately empiricism stops at the gaps whereas rationalism attempts to fill in the gaps.

    this is the reason why atheists who adhere to pure empiricism and refuse to use rationalism as a way to understand immaterial concepts hinder themselves intellectually...

    they adhere to pure empiricism as a way to combat the pure faith of religious followers in debates not realizing how intellectually limiting pure empiricism also is. both stances are wrong

    immaterial concepts like pre big bang theory, the nature of god, the forms: these things can only be understood through rationalism

    (in what way do you want me to elaborate on forms? forms are the essences of things that exist in reality. the first one to really speculate on the nature of forms was pythagoras who was mathematician who thought everything in reality could be reduced to math. so to him the forms were basically immaterial strings of numbers and equations that held up all reality. then socrates introduced the concept of forms more famously. basically he argued that forms where the immaterial essences of things that held up all reality like pythagoras except he used specifically the concept of "essences" instead of math. these things cant be proven through pure physical testing and can only be understood through intellectual reasoning. I'm not sure what you're asking about forms or "Polemos" specifically though. By "Polemos" are you talking about good/evil?)
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  9. x - calli

    x - calli Guest

    word, empiricism is highly useful but limited. empiricism is based on perception, and our senses are limited and flawed. we need rationalism and analysis to see further.

    for example, ive been on some outer space shit as of late, and much of what we know about the cosmos couldnt be discerned by simple observation. we use mathematics and science to understand what we observe and to improve our observation.

    without creating ideas about the world, and working with those ideas, we wouldnt have technology like the computer in front of me now.. we wouldnt have many of the achievements of civilization. rationalism has led us to understanding of realities that we couldnt understand otherwise, and indeed even defy empiricism.. for example: black holes, quantum mechanics, theory of relativity etc.

    with all that said though, empiricism should not be left out. an overreliance on rationalism can lead to ivory tower syndrome, in which you lose sight of reality, and your ideas about reality no longer match reality. id use communism as an example, but i dont want to veer into politics here.

    so, empiricism is useful, but its terribly limited.. it needs to be a supporting process for rationalism.
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  10. Eko Ren

    Eko Ren New Member

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    A priori and a posteriori go hand in hand. Necessary components of the human intellect.

    Atheism is non-belief, just as dark is the absence of light. Thus, it doesn't really have "scripture," be it as it may. The closest thing to atheistic dogma is nihilism. See: Marx, Nietzsche, Kafka, and so on.

    As far as Socratic theory being the basis of Western thought, I'd have to disagree. Socrates, in comparison to the current system, is a little idealistic. Western Imperialist Capitalism and its subsequent societies are more a product of Heidegger, Hegel, Fukuyama, and Keynes. But since the world is globalizing, the system is changing, as well as the perspectives behind it. So I would pay attention to more contemporary literature like say, Robert Harvey, Colin Mooers, or Akira Iriye. You can get a pretty good idea of where we are and where we're going, as Gauguin would ask.
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  11. Radium

    Radium f k

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    are you saying that all western thought isnt ultimately either an extension or counter to the argument socrates presented?

    all things reduce to him ultimately one way or another
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  12. i thought it was footnotes to plato all the way down
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  13. Eko Ren

    Eko Ren New Member

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    Yeah, that's what I'm saying. I disagree with that.
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  14. Radium

    Radium f k

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    ?

    his stance is fundamental in the sense that all future philosophy has ultimately either been an extension of his thought or an attempt to refute his thought
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  15. Eko Ren

    Eko Ren New Member

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    Well, no, that's not true either. There is a good deal of philosophy that has been derived from people who think nothing like Socrates. Say existentialists like Keirkegaard or Neitzche. Kant and his categorical imperative. Gorgias is presocratic, and a solipsist. Solipsism can be said to be another fundamental basis to Atheistic and Agnostic thought.

    Socrates has contributed to a reformed republic, empirical thought, various pedagogy like the socratic method and the symposium, logic, and ethics.
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  16. Radium

    Radium f k

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    you have no idea what you are talking about
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  17. UnbrokeN

    UnbrokeN Well-Known Member

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    the world, and our body..and that of all the other beings is simply too perfect to be by chance...there must be a source of energy of all lifeforms. life is all about perfect adaption of the body to its environment,,,a learning process both physically and spiritually.
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  18. Superman70

    Superman70 edited

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    this dude went back and edited all his posts.

    dead.
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  19. Poetic Concept

    Poetic Concept New Member

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    Atheism is a radical attempt to be different. I dont believe their is a God that reviews my every action, tallies my faults, and guides me through a path of righteousness, its erroneous to believe that. However I do believe that their is a beginning and an ultimate power we cannot even fathom or should understand exist. We are living, and the ultimate portrayal of livliness is consciousness no one can explain it, find it, or create it. We are the adjudicators of our fate or destiny, we pave the path to hope through a faith instituted by us by a faction that controls our subsequent action through our trust.
    Churches build monuments on your faith, control governments on your gold, and hold you religiously hostage to a probable uncertainty of damnation. Seriously! Can we believe that
    evolution is real and started everything out of nothing. No one can tell me that a single cell organism that came from no where, can have a series of random genetic mutations, that subsequently led to a multi-celled, conscious, and intelligent being.

    Atheism is a cynical attempt to contrasts an embodiment of religious culture that has stripped away the integral substinance of reality. Tragically kids follow this cult to be rebellious against a system they see is wrong, not a belief that nothing started everything. Atheism isn't a religion or lack of religion it an attempt to seperate from a social class swallowed by tedious attempts to control their destiny through whispers to clenched hands, in a room filled with hypocrits and pedophiles attempting to wipe away a lifetime of faults for a single act of apology. Seriously!

    Non-Extremist Atheist (who are not believers?) Throw around the word agnostic as an attempt to not be secluded as an atheist but also not to be completely whitewashed as a radicalist by a religous faith. Agnostic and Atheist are the same you do not believe. Shit I dont believe in that Bible I think it is a book of folklores hyperbolized over centuries of conversation written by a scholar attempting to make a documentary dollar. Thats the truth but no one can deny something started everything.

    God bless America!
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  20. j deazy

    j deazy DAT_NICCA_MOOSE swallows

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    alrighty... i will return to this tomorrow evening... but to get things started off...

    agnostic simply means without knowledge... if one is agnostic it simply means that they do not believe that we have enough knowledge to know whether a deity exists or not... basically saying that they aren't pompous enough to say that they know everything... kinda sitting on the fence in my opinion but i can live with their choice...

    having said this... I am a strong atheist... i am well read on dawkins, sagan, james randi, and several other 'atheist writers/thinkers'... i am also well read on the bible... on the philosophy front i've dabbled but it doesn't catch my fancy... i'm familiar with the 'big' philosophers and their concepts but couldn't speak to any depth... i'm an avid reader on less serious material having read around 60 books in the last 12 months...

    i'd love to talk this out with ya and hopefully show that not all atheists are foaming at the mouth... and from all you have written you are either well read or quite the google copy/paster...

    you still up for the challenge?
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