Those who try to reconcile a belief in God with the theory of evolution...

Discussion in 'The Sanctuary' started by Caesar, Jan 18, 2013.

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  1. reggie jax

    reggie jax Well-Known Member

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    i don't really know how you define ecstasy vs tragedy, but i don't see the parallels between this dynamic and that of choice vs determinism.

    in my experience there's always the pretense of choice, but of course there are constraints on what choices can actually be considered + bias towards a particular choice, rendering the choice all but predetermined.

    i can't say i've ever felt momentarily freed by a serious tragedy. if anything there's nothing more deterministic than suffering or watching someone suffer a tragic fate they can't escape from.
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  2. Radium

    Radium f k

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    choice is based on wanting, which is ultimately based on lacking thus necessitating some agent to have produced this innate lack

    you would not create this, since you're just a reward seeking agent, thus only this cruel and arbitrary universe can create it. thus only it can create the experience of choice
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  3. reggie jax

    reggie jax Well-Known Member

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    but in that case is the choice presented by tragedy any less predetermined than the choice presented by ecstasy?

    regardless of the circumstance, our choices will be guided by wanting.

    if this is the only reason choice exists then the obvious question is why it is such an important attribute to begin with. since it's essentially a tool used to make us reach for something greater, it would seem that the value we place on choice vs just attaining that greater goal without choice is merely a romanticism of the struggle that we all relate to so well.
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  4. Radium

    Radium f k

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    yes i thought that tragedy was really just creating a kind of pseudo choice in a way. but this is distinct from being in a jail of ecstasy where you cant even want to make choices

    youre right that its just a choice of what you value more. but anyway think about the consequences of being in pure ecstasy forever

    would you choose it?
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  5. reggie jax

    reggie jax Well-Known Member

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    no, if i'm being honest i think a world completely devoid of any struggle seems a little pointless. but i do think it's worth noting that this view has undoubtedly been influenced by the world i live in. really we sort of thrive on dedicating ourselves to achieving some task and without a struggle that can't exist... but don't you think that our evolution just might have a little something to do with this bias? is that really a good justification for the initial design?

    also, i think it's a false dilemma to say that it's either the world we have or a world with endless uninterrupted ecstasy. while i do see some practical worth in some of the struggles i have to deal with, i can identify other struggles for which i can't find any real point.

    prime example being dying of cancer or some other hopeless disease that wrecks your body and kills you without dignity.. i can't imagine any possible up side to this type of struggle for the person who is experiencing it. for those around them, the only value it provides is a sort of dulling of the senses which helps protect you from the other ruthless facts of life you're bound to be exposed to.

    do you think it's fair to say that some of the suffering in the world doesn't actually accomplish anything that is worth the price the sufferer has to pay?
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  6. ChromeDepot

    ChromeDepot Member

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    The Bible states that God created man in his own image. If we evolved from apes and the bible (which certain denominations claim is the literal word of God) is true...wouldn't that make God an ape?

    Christian logic fail.

    OT: I had no idea this sub-forum existed but being a huge Dawkins/Hitchens fan, i'll definitely be visiting frequently.
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  7. Radium

    Radium f k

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    that question you just asked would need an entirely new discourse about the eternality of things eg: the eternality of goodness and whether or not we can say things like this even exist in reality

    we really cant say very much about this. but there are a few things i think we can definitely say as having eternality.

    f.e. water is a great solvent making it a perfect medium to create creatures in

    Water, the Solvent for Life

    early kinds of creatures created in water were generally poor at movement as they yet lacked true aquadynamic bodies such as mollusks like squids who are very poor swimmers. fish forms would thus always start to trend their way into existence in this kind of medium as they have much more aquadynamic body types. fish forms are so effective that we even see them reappearing in things like cetaceans and even things like space shuttles

    http://www.win7wallpapers.com/walls/space_shuttle_discovery-wide.jpg

    i think there is a certain kind of eternality to this form that exists invisibly embedded into the very nature of reality. these fish forms that were created in this medium would ultimately need to possess some kind of reward seeking trait to exist and thus would have needed to activate, in a very primitive way, the genesis of tragedy and ecstasy

    you therefore can argue that tragedy and ecstasy is something very innate to reality. that is, something that must exist.

    re: suffering

    i agree that suffering is generally arbitrary and extremely excessive. i think that we as reward seeking agents created by reality must always hate tragedy when it comes this way and we really have no choice but to hate it. i think we are right to hate it. i think its disingenuous to not admit anger at reality for creating tragedy in such extreme ways. i think tragedy ultimately mutates us into distinct forms because of this. what kinds of agents we become once mutated by it is a very strange kind of question to try to ask then

    i think i always wanted to ask you this

    if you could create any universe you wanted to what kind would you make
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  8. reggie jax

    reggie jax Well-Known Member

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    i'll admit this is a compelling case you make, it seems like common sense to me and i am almost inclined to believe you're right.

    but i feel like we have no point of reference to really be able to undermine fundamental aspects of our universe. we only have one point of reference, and it's one where fish forms are efficient and tragedy is a fuel on which organisms are built.

    so i'd agree they're fundamental aspects of reality. but that doesn't then make them inevitable when you have the ability to construct any type of reality. they're only intrinsic in the one reality that we know.

    even if you can demonstrate that we can't even imagine another reality where these things are not present, once again the limitation in our point of reference needs to be considered.

    an interesting thought experiment along these lines is, try to think of a new animal or creature. it can exist in any type of reality with any kinds of conditions that you want. really try to visualize this creature. chances are, anything you picture will probably be a mesh of characteristics from existing organisms. is this a limitation in what kinds of creatures can possibly exist, or a short coming on our part?

    so in terms of god, i didn't and won't say that a god wouldn't use this type of system. just that to do so does undermine the type of morality (or aversion to suffering) that humans think is ordained by the almighty.

    as you indicated we hate one aspect of reality and do everything in our power to demonize it. yet according to our discussion we should really be thankful for the suffering in this world, as it is fueling the process by which we better ourselves. yet for it to remain an effective tool we still need to hate it.

    so viewing things in this light, it seems the morality we hold dear as one of our intrinsic links to god is entirely proprietary to organic life and based on tragedy's role in our lives as reward seeking agents. it is our lament against one aspect of the reality that god gave to us, not a symbol of our unity with that god in an eternal war against the forces of evil.

    let me get back to you on this. i've never thought about creating a universe and i'm really not sure.
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  9. x calibur

    x calibur

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    cognitive bias and evolutionary pressures are inescapable. I don't think those limitations make it impossible to reason about metaphysics and the workings of the universe, but they do make it much more difficult. higher knowledge is attainable, but only at great length.

    that's why mythology and tribalism are so common in human societies; whereas mathematics, science, rigorous philosophy, modern medicine, etc. are disciplines that gradually developed.

    there is a natural inclination towards worship: it starts as primitive animism, develops into mythology and paganism, and eventually into higher ideas framed by scripture. it's a default inclination, so it was definitely shaped by evolution.

    however, that evolutionary utility doesn't discard the concept of God. the idea of an intelligent creator is definitely plausible, and I believe in it, based on my own rationale.

    if evolutionary bias is a solid wall to understanding, then nothing can be reasoned about. it's safe to assume that there is a consistent structure, even if it's difficult to glimpse.

    also, along with fire, wheel, and bow & arrow, you should've mentioned the stirrup.
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  10. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    Good thing christians dont believe in evolution

    but i think by ur logic God would be pimordial ooze.


    but welcome to the sanct.
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  11. ChromeDepot

    ChromeDepot Member

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    I'm pretty sure the Episcopalian and Methodist churches both view evolution as fact. Being raised Episcopalian that's what I was taught at least.

    Even the Roman Catholic Church acknowledges that some sort of evolution took place. Pope Benedict has acknowledged both the big bang and mainstream evolutionary theory:

    Of course, they also add that this evolution was in some way "guided by God"; that however creates so many holes in traditional Catholic teachings that it's almost laughable

    I don't understand how people can accept evolution and still have 100% faith in their respective religions. It's especially true in Christianity where so much is based on the Genesis story: humans being God's perfect creation, original sin, the bloodline of Adam and Eve being described in detail, etc.
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  12. Sir Bustalot

    Sir Bustalot I am Jesus

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    ^^yeah man but all the religious folk in this section think catholics are devil following heathens... See BigPayBack and coup, theyll tell you how wrong catholicism actually is
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  13. M-theory

    M-theory Saint Esprit

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    I've pointed out here more than once that most Christians believe in evolution, some people just go

    [​IMG]
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  14. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    Glad to hear u have been listening..somewhat.
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  15. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    .as far as YOU know by YOUR experience. which is 1 out of 7 billion other experiences.
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  16. antilluminati

    antilluminati Well-Known Member

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    No, based on things you can observe in our realm of reality.
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  17. Koss

    Koss ∞♥

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    Commonplace memory accommodation of new information. It takes a lot to unlearn something, much easier to confabulate a connection. It'll take a generation until the working 2.0 belief system stabilizes.
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  18. lyricalpriest

    lyricalpriest Rap Games Dawson Creek

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    nigga eat some shrooms and you'll understand everything in the universe
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  19. breathlesss

    breathlesss Registered Sex Offender

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    I think of humanity as having hands at our armpits, our reach actually exceeds our grasp, we think of and want to do things unattainable, and if we do grow to grasp what our mental wrist stumps had poked around in, they are then out there pokin around for more, we have done exhausted spiritual curiosities and are now poking out into the physical heavens, the further we hold solid ground on, the further we poke, it the never-ending next step of progressive evolution
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  20. breathlesss

    breathlesss Registered Sex Offender

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    I have seen colors that do not exist, with eyes that did not receive light, perceived with brain waves that did not ripple during the shockingly nonelectrical experience
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