The Trinity Delusion: I John 5:7

Discussion in 'The Sanctuary' started by Coup d'état, Apr 20, 2012.

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  1. Coup d'état

    Coup d'état Don't believe the hype

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    For there are three that testify in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.

    The Trinitarian Claim

    Trinitarian scholars now admit this verse was not written by the hand of John. Having access to collections of hundreds of manuscripts, modern scholars are able to determine this verse was introduced into the Bible long after John wrote this letter. However, there are still Trinitarians who are unwilling to accept the facts on this matter and claim this verse is authentic.

    Examination of the Claim

    1. Trinity prooftext? What?

    Trinitarians of all stripes seem to somehow think this passage would otherwise be a powerful proof for Trinitarian doctrine. This likely happens with Trinitarians because John uses the words "three" and "one" in one breath. But would it really serve to support the Trinity? Trinitarians tend to read the passage as if John were saying, "and these three are one [God]," or "these three are one [being]" or some similar idea. As such, they imagine a preconceived idea into the passage which is not present anywhere in the context.

    The text says there are three that testify, indicating the subject matter of the verse concerns a united witness between these three and there is no reason one should suppose it would imply anything else. 1 John 5:7 literally says, "and these three are one." The very next verse, concerning the Spirit and the water and the blood, literally says, "the three are unto the one" meaning these too have a common and united testimony. To be consistent, the Trinitarian advocate of 1 John 5:7 should also then conclude these three, the water, the Spirit, and the blood, are also a Trinity of one being. It is quite reckless to interpret this text as declaring the Father, Word and Holy Spirit are one God when all the verse says is the three are a united witness, one testimony. The oneness in question is a oneness of purpose and function, not a oneness of identity or ontology and substance of being. In other words, the three, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit are in one united agreement concerning their witness/testimony.

    In a similar sense, Jesus prayed for this same unity of oneness between himself the Father and the church. We would not therefore assume these three are "God."

    I do not pray for these only, but also for those who believe in me through their word, that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. The glory which thou hast given me I have given to them, that they may be one just as we are one, I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one. (John 17:20-23).

    As we can see, Jesus prayed that he and the Father and all the disciples would be one. Shall we then suppose all these are God? Of course not. And there is not reason to do so with this passage either. Both of these passages, John 17:20-23 and 1 John 5:7, are referring to function, not substance of being. This passage simply does not suggest a Triune God even if it was valid. It simply says that there are three who testify and these three are one. It also says the Spirit, water, and blood are one in the same sense. Neither of the two groups of three are to be understood one other thing but as one unified testimony.

    2. It Just Isn't There

    I John 5:7, also known as, the Comma Johanneum, is found in only eight late Greek manuscripts, four of which have the words in a marginal note. These marginal glosses were added after the original copy was made. Most of these manuscripts originate from the sixteenth century and the earliest manuscript, includes the reading in a marginal note which was added sometime after the original composition. There is no sure evidence the Comma Johanneum existed in any Greek manuscript until the early sixteenth century or perhaps the fifteenth century at best. From what we do know, it seems the Comma somehow found its way into Latin manuscripts sometime in the fourth or fifth century. It does not appear in any Greek script of any kind until 1215 A.D. where we find it in a Greek translation of the Acts of the Lateran Council, a work originally written in Latin.

    3. The Significance of Distinguishing between the Greek and Latin Manuscripts

    The European church was essentially split into two halves. The western church spoke Latin and used Latin Bibles and the eastern church spoke Greek and used Greek Bibles. So the question of Greek versus Latin manuscripts is basically a geographical issue.

    It is also important to recognize the primacy of the Greek manuscripts. The New Testament was originally written in Greek. Early Christians also primarily used the Greek Old Testament (Septuagint), not the Hebrew Old Testament, and this tradition lasted for several centuries. Christians later translated the Greek into the Latin for the Latin speaking church in the western part of the Roman Empire, including northern Africa.

    Now because the Greek language is the original language, and it would create numerous translation errors for copyists to translate from Greek to Latin and then translate from Latin back into Greek, scribal copyists did not translate from the Latin back into the Greek but only translated from the original Greek into Latin. Latin copies were made from both Greek copies and already translated Latin copies. >/p>

    However, Greek copies were only made from Greek copies and no translation was necessary at all. Since 1 John 5:7 does not appear in any early Greek manuscripts, it shows us the verse simply was not there but was somehow introduced into the western Latin manuscripts independently from the Greek manuscripts in circulation. We also know this because the error was first localized to Spain and North Africa and then later made its way into Italy and Gaul (France). All these locations are in the locality of the western Latin speaking church.

    4. Nobody noticed?

    Now here is how we can be certain that 1 John 5:7 never existed in the early church. Because of the Arian controversy in the fourth century, we know for certain the church was especially guarded concerning teachings and any Scriptural evidence they thought they had concerning the Trinity. After the end of the fourth century, these manuscripts were the canonized writings of the status quo church who fought for Trinitarian teaching and it is an unthinkable proposition to suggest the eastern Greek speaking church would have let such a passage inadvertently escape from all their Greek manuscripts spread throughout the eastern half of the Roman empire. If 1 John 5:7 had been authentic, the first omission of this verse would have created an immediate outcry and church leaders would have been looking for the culprit. Indeed, blood was spilled over far less in the fourth century. It is an absolutely ludicrous fantasy to suppose the entire eastern Greek speaking Trinitarian church could have allowed 1 John 5:7 to somehow escape from all their Bibles completely unnoticed for over a thousand years.
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  2. Coup d'état

    Coup d'état Don't believe the hype

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    5. Inexplicably Silent

    And here is another reason we know this passage is inauthentic. We do not find single person quoting this passage in the second to fifth century debates concerning the nature of God and Christ. If indeed 1 John 5:7 was present in the original text, it is inexplicable that no one ever brought it forward concerning the deity of Christ, especially since similar sounding passages like John 10:30 enjoyed very heavy mileage. We do not find one solitary voice appealing to it through the entire Sabellian and Arian controversies and even afterward. But we do have evidence the Comma surfaced in the late fourth century in Spain or the early fifth century near Carthage.

    6. Augustine

    Now Augustine loved to promote Trinitarian dogma which had been officially made the official teaching of the church by the order of Emperor Theodosius in 380 A.D. In fact, he spent nearly twenty years writing his voluminous work "On the Trinity." He never mention this verse once. Not once, Augustine also wrote a commentary on 1 John. It is ridiculous to think Augustine would have written such a huge work but somehow knew about this verse yet never mentioned it in his substantially large writings on the Trinity.

    Augustine, who was a Latin speaking bishop in north Africa, wrote a tract on the Epistle of John in the first quarter of the fifth century, which shows he had never heard of 1 John 5:7. And here is what he wrote concerning the fifth chapter of John's letter.

    I would not have you mistake that place in the epistle of John the apostle where he says, 'There are three witnesses: the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three are one.'.... if we will inquire into the things signified I by these, there not unreasonably comes into our thoughts the Trinity itself, which is the one, only, true, supreme God, Father and Son and Holy Spirit, of whom it could most truly be said, "There are three witnesses, and the three are one:" so that by the term 'Spirit' we should understand God the Father to be signified; as indeed it was concerning the worshipping of Him that the Lord was speaking, when He said, "God is a Spirit:" by the term, 'blood,' the Son; because "the Word was made flesh:" and by the term 'water,' the Holy Spirit; as, when Jesus spoke of the water which He would give to them that thirst, the evangelist saith, "But this said He of the Spirit which they that believed on Him were to receive....And if in any other way this depth of mystery which we read in John's epistle can be expounded and understood agreeably with the Catholic faith, which neither confounds nor divides the Trinity, neither believes the substances diverse nor denies that the persons are three, it is on no account to be rejected" (Contra Maximinum Arianum, 22)

    We can see here that Augustine wants these three, the Spirit, the water and the blood, to somehow be the Trinity. Notice how Augustine violently distorts the text. He says the Holy Spirit in the passage is not the mentioned Spirit, but the Father and rather the water is the Holy Spirit. This is supposed to be one of the church's greatest theologians? It is laughable. Indeed, he identifies the Spirit with the Father and he Father is NOT the Holy Spirit in Trinity doctrine. He resorts to similar ridiculous lengths in his commentary on John 17:3.

    It is quite plain that Augustine had never heard of 1 John 5:7. He never mentions it in his commentary on 1 John but must rather try and turn the next verse into some kind of Trinitarian interpretation. But we see here already the zealousness toward the newly developed Trinitarian doctrine had prompted Augustine to mystically interpret 1 John 5:8 in a very violent manner in order to promote Trinitarianism. Augustine's interpretation also helps us see just how 1 John 5:7 was created.



    7. Disinformation: Dishonest Propaganda

    Unfortunately, the universal awareness of this counterfeit text has led to a mass of disinformation perpetuated by those who don't like the facts. There is an abundance of false claims and disinformation being spread concerning 1 John 5:7. Many of these claims noticeably are without documentary support and many of those who do provide documentary support do so very dishonestly. Some claim the Comma is found in "numerous" manuscripts but do not identify these manuscripts or tell you that the manuscripts in question are very late manuscripts. What these folks forget to mention is that the Comma is found in Greek manuscripts only at a very late date, or they forget to tell you the Comma was written in margin at a later date, or, they conveniently forget to inform you it is only found in Latin, not Greek manuscripts, etc. etc. It is not found in numerous Greek or Latin manuscripts. It is found in a few early Latin manuscripts dating from the fifth century and all of them just happen to have originated in the same locality. Another false claim is that several church fathers either "quoted," or "referred," to the Comma. Another false claim is to quote a church father but forget to tell you that the work they are quoting is under high suspicion of forgery and actually written by someone else at a later date and that type of thing. We simply cannot find a reliable early quotation for this verse and it appears to have likely been forged in Spain in the late fourth or early fifth century. Some of these claims are totally false and you will be hard pressed to find documentary support for most of them. Others are claims that the fathers made references to the Comma, but upon investigation and examination of these alleged quotations, one finds these claims are nothing but wishful thinking. "Stretching the truth" would be putting it mildly.
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  3. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    What verse is that?
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  4. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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  5. RandomPoster

    RandomPoster New Member

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    Here is a link discussing the Johannian Comma a little as well. This is from a Christian Pastor explaining that it's not a good verse to use to defend the Trinity.

    enduringword. com/audio/qa/JohannianComma.mp3
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  6. Coup d'état

    Coup d'état Don't believe the hype

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    random, that link ain't showin'...
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  7. Coup d'état

    Coup d'état Don't believe the hype

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  8. RandomPoster

    RandomPoster New Member

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    I still can't post links so you'll have to copy and paste it and remove the spaces. You can also go to enduringword .com then Online Commentaries then bottom of page it's in the Questions section.
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  9. Coup d'état

    Coup d'état Don't believe the hype

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    @Random P.

    I noticed the speaker subtly implies that people who refute the Trinity are "occultists" @ 2:09

    He said

    That's right ! The Most High is not mocked and he don't play around with foolishness, the true worshipers won't even be careful about reppin' him!!!

    Father have mercy on me, on us all Abba! HalleluYAH

    oc·cult·ism (-kltzm, kl-) n.
    1. The study of the supernatural.
    2. A belief in occult powers and the possibility of bringing them under human control.
    3. A belief that certain secret, mysterious, or supernatural agencies exist and that human beings may communicate with them or have their assistance. — occultist, n., adj.

    (I'm being general and just saying) The trinity is in reality of and about the occult. lmao It's false and I am convinced that people who believe in it actually have idols in their hearts. They worship different gods and for sure don't understand the bible and the real GOSPEL: Raw, uncut & unheard !

    And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. - Revelation 12:9
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  10. RandomPoster

    RandomPoster New Member

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    Nah he said 'Cultist' not 'Occultist' very big difference.
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  11. Coup d'état

    Coup d'état Don't believe the hype

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    :(

    I could not make it out then...I was listening a few times to make sure I was right...

    but still "cultist" is just as derogortory.

    cult (klt)
    n.
    1.
    a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.
    b. The followers of such a religion or sect.
    2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.
    3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.
    4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.
    5.
    a. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.
    b. The object of such devotion.
    6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.



    Think about what he and the rest of the world is calling the truth about Ysrael and the Most High...It's deep. I can't claim what tribe you are from, but no question the bible is your heritage and you ought look into it!

    Your friend alway,

    Coup
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  12. RandomPoster

    RandomPoster New Member

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    We're all in some type of cult so it's not a big deal to me. Christianity (especially denominations) is a cult by definition, the Hebrew faith by definition could be considered a cult, political parties could be considered cults, military branches could be considered cults and on and on. I know you'll disagree because the Hebrew Faith is a nationality and not a religion but I'd disagree because it is still a set of religious beliefs connected to a group of people.
    So I really don't let that word bother me much. I've been thought to be in cults before and whenever I really speak my mind I'm typically at risk to continue to be accused of it or heresy. Oh well I am who I am.








    is a cult by definition, political parties are cults by definition, military branches are cults by definition so it's not something I'm offended by
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  13. Coup d'état

    Coup d'état Don't believe the hype

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    I hear what you are saying and in that sense i do agree with you

    but also I don't think the one truth is cult like! but I got your point and message received.

    I'm working on doing a video lesson on Deuteronomy chapter 28 that let's us pin point the House of Ysrael today...I'll drop it here once done and maybe you will be interested to watch.
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  14. RandomPoster

    RandomPoster New Member

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    I've read and listened to many messages on the curses of disobedience in Deut 28. I wonder if any group was obedient and experiencing the blessings of Deut 28.
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  15. Coup d'état

    Coup d'état Don't believe the hype

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    the way I look at it is ...that whole chapter was about what would happen to Ysrael....they sinned against the Father and this is what happened. He rose up all the nations to do this against them. You are still in your captivity....and when Ysrael repents only then will he lift the curses and bless them according to the same chapter. That is why it's important to know who you are and what the Father wants. . .
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  16. Menso

    Menso Go Lakers!

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    I give scholarly accounts, and you say that we should only use the Bible. Then you go and quote scholars about the veracity of the text. Why the double standard?
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  17. Coup d'état

    Coup d'état Don't believe the hype

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    We have to use the bible and the scrolls. Hebrew and Greek texts are important to understand the mess religion has created. And in this case it's the trinity doctrine.

    I'm trying to get the Truth out so people can worship in spirit and in truth.
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  18. Menso

    Menso Go Lakers!

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    You didn't answer my question.
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  19. Coup d'état

    Coup d'état Don't believe the hype

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    do me a favor, don't talk to me unless you have a honest question for me.
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  20. Menso

    Menso Go Lakers!

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    lmaoooooooo. It is an honest question. You said Jesus is not Elohim. Previously you stated that Elohim is Father and Son. So which is it?
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