The Trinity Delusion: I Corinthians 8:6

Discussion in 'The Sanctuary' started by Coup d'état, Apr 20, 2012.

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  1. Coup d'état

    Coup d'état Don't believe the hype

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    Corinthians 8:6

    "For us there is one God: the Father."

    Proof of the Trinity Error

    In this verse, Paul indicates that the "one God" is one person, "the Father." In contrast to Trinitarian doctrine which states that the one God is three persons, this teaching by Paul clearly and necessarily says that the one God is one person and that one person is the Father of Jesus.

    The Trinitarian Response

    The standard Trinitarian claim here is that if anyone concludes that Jesus cannot be God since the Father is identified as the one God then one must also consistently conclude that the Father is not Lord since Jesus is identified as the one Lord. The expectation here is that no one will conclude the Father is not "Lord" and so the claim that Jesus is not the one God is voided by this response.

    "But by that reasoning, since Jesus is the "one Lord," the Father cannot be Lord!" (Robert Bowman, Why You Should Believe in the Trinity, p. 73).

    And ironically, Bowman immediately cites Matthew 11:25. We will see why that is so ironic down below.

    Essentially, Bowman is arguing that if one argues that Jesus cannot be the one God then to be consistent one must also argue the Father is not the one Lord. This sounds good on the surface doesn't it? But is it even true? No, it is a clever word trick.

    This kind of word game trickery has duped many people. Most people actually fall for this kind of word trickery. Now we will see precisely how this word trick works and why it is a farce.

    "False prophets also arose among the people just as there will also be false teachers among you who will secretly introduce destructive heresies....they will exploit you with well-turned words." (2 Peter 2:1-3).

    Exposing the Trinitarian Trickery

    1. Nullifying Scripture for the sake of Tradition

    If Paul was not identifying the one God as one person, the Father, and if Paul was not identifying the one Lord as one person, Jesus, then what was his point? It is quite clear even on the surface of it that the Trinitarian response here is simply designed to nullify this passage and rob it of any meaning whatsoever. What is Paul's point when he said, "for us there is one God: the Father," if it was not to identify quite clearly just who the one God is and that the one God is this one person we call "the Father"?

    The Trinitarian robs Paul's message of any meaning. He must demand that Paul is simply saying there is one person who is God the Father and one person who is Lord Jesus Christ, rather than there is one God who is the Father and one Lord who is Jesus Christ. The effect of the Trinitarian claim is that it completely nullfies Paul's point. However, this is exactly what the Trinitarian needs to do for the sake of his tradition. In the end, all he has Paul say is that there are two persons, one of them is God the Father and one of them is Lord Jesus Christ, and Paul just happens to identify the Father here as God and just happens to identify Jesus Christ has Lord and he could have identied either one of them as God and Lord or both.

    2. The Basis of this Word Trick

    The basis of this word trick is to suggestively imply that Paul is declaring that there is only one God in existence and one Lord in existence. Therefore to deny that Jesus is the one God is to deny that the Father is the one Lord.

    However, it is obvious that Paul's point is not to make a declaration that there is only one God in existence and one Lord in existence. In fact, he just explicitly said that there are MANY gods and MANY lords. Note how he says, "but FOR US there is one God." Paul's point is not to tell us how many Gods or Lords there are in existence as Trinitarians suggestively imply. His point is that we Christians have one God and that one God is the Father and in addition to the one God we have one Lord and that one Lord is Jesus.

    3. There are Two Lords in Existence, not One

    It is quite clear in the Scriptures that there is not just one Lord in existence. At Acts 2:34-36, we read that Peter quotes Psalm 110:1, "The Lord said to my Lord, 'Sit at my right hand,'" and then we read that Peter proclaims that this Psalm was fulfilled when God raised Jesus from the dead and "made him Lord." We find a similar idea at Matthew 28:18 where Jesus indicates He has been given all authority in heaven and upon the earth.

    The Lord, Jesus' Father, made the Son, Jesus, "Lord." Did the Lord Father make Jesus into the Lord Father? No. The Lord Father made his son Lord, another Lord. What we are to understand here is that the Father gave his Lordship authority to His Son when He raised Jesus from the dead. He was given the name that is above every name, that is, "Lord." It is the same Lordship authority but there are two Lords, the Father, and the Son. Jesus was made Lord when God raised him from the dead. No one in their right mind would ever conclude that the Father is that same Lord.

    The Father was Jesus' "Lord" before his resurrection.

    At that time Jesus said, "I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth. (Matthew 11:25).
    Also,

    The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to [the] captives And recovery of sight to the blind, to free those who are oppressed; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD." (Luke 4:18-19).

    The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever. (Revelation 11:15).

    And the Father is still Jesus' one Lord. It is quite clear then that there are two Lords in existence.

    4. The Whole Passage

    Now concerning idol sacrifices. Since we know that all of us have knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. If any one thinks that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if one loves God, he is known by Him. Hence, as to the eating of idol sacrifices, we know that an idol is nothing and that there is no God but one. For although there may be gods in heaven or on earth, as there are many gods and many lords, yet for us there is one God, the Father, out of whom are all things and we to Him, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and we through him.
    (1 Corinthians 8:1-6).


    5. The Structure of the Passage

    There is no God but One

    Many gods

    Many lords

    Yet for Us

    One God - the Father

    Out of whom are all things and we to Him

    and

    One Lord - Jesus Christ

    Through whom are all things and we through Him

    Although there are For us there is
    many gods One God - the Father
    many lords One Lord - Jesus Christ
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  2. Coup d'état

    Coup d'état Don't believe the hype

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    6. "For US"

    In the Trinitarian interpretation, the words "for us" essentially have no meaning. For the Trinitarian, Paul could have simply said, "For although there may be gods in heaven or on earth, as there are many gods and many lords, but there is one God, the Father." But words have meaning and value and Paul uses these words for a reason. And the point he makes is quite plain: although there are many gods and many lords there is "for us" but one God, the Father.

    7. The Statement Itself

    Trinitarians often like to say, "The Father is the one God, Jesus is the one God, and the Holy Spirit is the one God." However, it is quite a different thing to say, "The One God is the Father," or "The One God is Jesus." For example, if someone said, "the Father is the divine nature and Jesus is the divine nature," it is a hypothetically plausible concept that both persons are the divine nature just as two human persons are one human nature. We are saying something is true about two different persons. However, if someone said, "The divine nature is the Father," we are saying something quite different. We are identifying the divine nature as one person. Not only so, we would be confusing person and being which Trinitarians insist we cannot do. And then if we also said, "the divine nature is Jesus" we would be identifying the divine nature as another person and contradicting our first statement. For this reason, this statement by Paul is an inescapable dilemma for the Trinitarian.

    To say, "the Father is the one God" is to say something true about the Father. However, to say "the one God is the Father," is different. This statement says something true about the one God. This statement identifies the one God as the Father. What is true about the one God is that this one God is the Father. Can you then also say, "the one God is Jesus?" No you cannot because then you would have defined the one God differently. To define/describe the one God differently is to define and describe another God. And indeed, in Trinitarian doctrine the Father is not the Son. Moreover, Paul did not simply say, "the one God is the Father." He actually said something more foreceful, "there is one God, the Father."

    Analysis of the Evidence

    1. The Definition of the word "God" in this Verse

    How does the Trinitarian define the word "God" in this verse. Indeed, how does he define the words "one God." This cannot be defined as the Triune God because that would be saying the Triune being is the Father which makes no sense in Trinitarian doctrine. Hence, the Trinitarian's only option is to try and claim it means "the one divine ousia." And indeed he must since there is no other option. Paul is referring to the "one God" and the oneness of God in Trinitarian doctrine is the divine ousia.

    And this is where the Trinitarian is caught in an insoluble predicament. Here Paul would be defining the one divine nature as the one person of the Father. And this rules out anyone else being identified as the divine nature. This is where we see that the statement, "the one God is the Father" is quite a different statement than, "the Father is the one God." Here, one could perhaps also say, "the Son is the one God." But you cannot say, (1) "the one God is the Father," because it defines the one God as one person, the Father, and also say, (2) "the one God is the Son," because it would define the one God as another single person, the Son.

    And the predicament gets even worse. If the one divine ousia is identified as the Father, and one of Jesus divine natures is the the one divine ousia, then Paul has just defined Jesus' divine nature as the person of the Father.

    2. Trinitarian Definition of the One God vs. Paul's.

    In the doctrine of the Trinity, the one God is three persons. The one God is the one Triune Being. But Paul is defining the one God as one person, the Father. The Father is not the Triune Being and the Triune Being is not the Father. Hence, Paul is clearly defining the one God differently than Trinitarians.

    Trinitarian: there is one God: the Triune Being

    The Bible: there is one God: the Father

    3. Paul's Purposeful Contrast

    Paul's contrast is not meaningless but meaningful. His point here is not that there is only one God in existence and one Lord in existence. Indeed, this is why he contrasts many gods and lords with our one God and Lord. And it is also why he uses the words, "for us." While there are many gods and many lords, there is "for us" Christians one God, the Father, and one Lord, Jesus Christ.

    4. Illustration: Pharaoah and Joseph

    To illustrate, we can observe how this worked out with Pharaoh and Joseph. Let us just suppose we are ancient Egyptians. If we said, "For us there is one King: Pharaoh and there is one Lord: Joseph," would it then make sense to conclude that Joseph is not the one King we are mentioning? Yes it would. Would it also make sense to conclude that Pharaoh is not the one Lord we are mentioning? Yes it would. Should we argue that Joseph is not the one King? Yes, we should. Should we also argue that Pharaoh is not Lord? No, we should not. We know that Joseph's Lordship authority is sourced in Pharaoah, not Joseph, and Pharoah has simply vested Joseph with this authority.

    5. The Trinitarian Trick

    The Trinitarian trick is to suggestively imply that Paul's point is to tell us how many Gods exist (one) and how many Lords exist (one). The distinction here is whether we are talking about whether there is one God in existence and whether there is one Lord in existence or whether we are talking about something else. The trick in the Trinitarian response is to suggestively imply that the verse is being interpreted to say, "There is only one God in existence: the Father, and there is only one Lord in existence: Jesus," and if we accept this implied suggestion they build their response upon it.

    But this is obviously not Paul's point. He is contrasting many gods with one God, the Father. And he is contrasting many lords with one Lord, Jesus. He is not making a statement about the existence of one God but about who for us is our one God: the Father. And he is not making a statement about the existence of one Lord but who for us is our one Lord: Jesus.

    Whether or not these other gods or lords actually exist is irrelevant to the question. If other people have other gods or other lords which are true gods or lords or false gods or the lords doesn't make a difference. They still have many gods and many lords and in that sense they exist. Truth and reality are not the same thing. Lies are things which exist. And Paul is contrasting the existence of these many gods with our one God and the existence, whether true or false, of many lords, with our one Lord.
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  3. Coup d'état

    Coup d'état Don't believe the hype

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    6. The Point: One Lord God, the Father, plus One Lord Jesus Christ

    Paul's point is quite clear. For us Christians there is one God: the Father. In contrast to many Gods we just have one God and that one God is the Father. Period. For us Christians there is also one Lord: Jesus Christ. In contrast to many Lords we just have one Lord and that one Lord is Jesus.

    If we said that Jesus cannot be the one God whom Paul is mentioning then we would also have to say the Father is not the one Lord Paul is mentioning. And yes we would and should. Jesus is the one whom God MADE Lord when He raised him from the dead. This Lord is most definitely not the Father.

    And here is the critical turning point. Can we say that Jesus cannot be the one God? Yes we can. There is only one true God in existence and Paul identifies that one God as the Father. Do we then need to say that the Father is not the one Lord? No, there isn't just one Lord. The Father is not the one Lord in view here and there are two true Lords in existence for Christians. For us there is one God, the Father, Lord and God but also for us there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, the one whom God made Lord of all when He raised him from the dead.

    The crux of the matter is this. The Father is our God and the Lord of Jesus. Jesus is the Lord of us. When Paul says there is one God, the Father, Jesus cannot also be that one God. When Paul says there is one Lord, Jesus, the Father cannot be that one Lord, and He isn't. He is another Lord, the Lord of Jesus of made Jesus Lord when He raised him from the dead.

    The Lord said to my Lord

    Lord 1 said to Lord 2.

    7. The Trinitarian's Inescapable Dilemma

    When Trinitarians wish to insist that Paul is indicating there is only one Lord in existence, he is caught in an ultimately finds himself caught in an escapable dilemma with his claim that the word "Lord" is simply another way of indicating that one is "God." Carefully regard the following passages of Scripture:

    the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (Rom 15:6).

    the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Cor 1:3).

    the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (2 Cor 11:31).

    the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (Eph 1:3).

    the God of our Lord Jesus Christ (Eph 1:17).

    the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (Col 1:3).

    the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:3).

    The one Lord, Jesus Christ, has a God. If, as Trinitarians are claiming at 1 Corinthians 8:6, there is only one Lord in existence, the "one Lord" is equivalent to the one God, and therefore the Father is also this "one Lord," then there is an insurmountable problem on their hands when the above passages are considered. If there is only one Lord in existence and the Lord Jesus Christ has a God then so does the Father.

    Conclusion

    Trinitarians have had 1600 years to dream up some rather clever contrivances and word tricks. This is just another of the many that have been crafted and devised. The suggestive trick here is to imply Paul is referring to how many God and Lords actually exist and to insist that if there is only one Lord then both Jesus and the Father must be that one and same Lord. But that is the problem. They are not the one and same Lord. The Lord God our Father made Jesus into a Lord when He raised him from the dead. By definition, this Lord cannot be the same Lord as the Father.

    Paul's point is that we Christians have two things: (1) one God: the Father, and (2) one Lord Jesus Christ. He would also have no problem putting it this way, "one Lord God, the Father," plus "one Lord Jesus Christ," and that is his point. Don't be fooled by the well turned words of false teachers.
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  4. Coup d'état

    Coup d'état Don't believe the hype

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    just food for thought.
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  5. Coup d'état

    Coup d'état Don't believe the hype

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  6. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.


    The bible does not agree with cultists
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  7. RandomPoster

    RandomPoster New Member

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    Payback while I know where you are coming from I also think I know where Coup is coming from. It's hard to reconcile because we as Christians are sometimes force fed doctrines as essentials and told if we don't believe it just like Martin Luther or Charles Spurgeon or other great Theologians we're not really Christians. How about this?
    Coup do you worship the Messiah? Can we get to the Father any other way than through the Son? In other words can I reject the Son and be in a relationship with the Father?
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  8. Coup d'état

    Coup d'état Don't believe the hype

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    we can't be worried about what the Satanic Christian leaders think...what do scriptures say ?

    The scriptures say the only way to the Father is through the MessiYAH

    And you shall worship one Elohim, that is the Father.
    test
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