the arms industry are a bunch of filthy rich heroes

Discussion in 'IntroSpectrum' started by Tequila Jong-il, Sep 19, 2007.

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  1. identity-X

    identity-X No Talent Assclown

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    http://board.rapmusic.com/showpost.php?p=14744367&postcount=84

    jesus et. al. wanted everyone to live in a "fair, harmonious, just" society

    marx et. al wanted everyone to live in a "fair, harmonious, just" society

    a select few of their followers erroneously came to the conclusion that this harmony could only happen when everyone across the globe was under their control and subjected to violence

    jesus, matthew, mark, luke, john and the gang get a pass

    marx, engels & co. on the other hand, hav etheir ideas twisted again, this time by people opposed to them (see anything you or Teq have ever written about Marx). people who think that "control" was the intent. or that "violence" was a goal in and of itself instead of a means (or, more appropriately, a response)



    so again...

    Why is Marx responsible for China, but Jesus is not responsible for the Crusades?
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  2. Tequila Jong-il

    Tequila Jong-il SALAD TOSSER

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    "The next world war will result in the disappearance from the face of the earth not only of reactionary classes and dynasties, but also of entire reactionary peoples. And that, too, is progress." - engels

    I must say X, the sheer tenacity of your wrongness has been almost admirable but I wonder if even you, when confronted with the joint architect of 'marxism' explicitly welcoming genocide, will continue prcolaiming marx and engels as great men whose loving philosophy has been twisted beyond recognition by its votaries.
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  3. identity-X

    identity-X No Talent Assclown

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    "intent" is an english word, isn't it? maybe I missed something?
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  4. Tequila Jong-il

    Tequila Jong-il SALAD TOSSER

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    What kind of fucking idiot are you? Marx and engels believed that mass murder by socialist regimes was not just legitimate but neccesary, even going so far as to ruminate exicitedly about all the reactionary peoples(slavs, jews, blacks ect) who would be wiped out by such violence.

    If anything the deathtoll attributed to socialism is far smaller in scale than marx and engels would have wished.
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  5. identity-X

    identity-X No Talent Assclown

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    - they spoke nothing of "regimes". communism is anti-regime.

    - they didn't believe violence was necessary as an end, but a means. nowhere did they speak about mass control and terror against people for the sake of mass control and terror against people, something anti-Marxists like to repeat over and over. Violence to a perceived mass injustice is not the same as violence for the sake of violence.

    - You're not the first person (or first Marxist) to point out that Marx et. al. were racist as fuck.

    There are people who are convinced that America was created by white christians for white christians, partly because there is evidence here and there that would indicate this is the case. These people will fish around for as many quotes or documents as possible in order to prove their arguments, yet every one of their arguments falls flast because they fail to place any of them in a larger context.

    Meanwhile, most Americans see past (some knowingly, some because they don't even recognize it...doesn't change anything) the racist, classist, sexist bullshit espoused by some of founding fathers and realize there are some good ideas to be extracted.



    The same applies to discussions about Marx I guess...
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  6. Here's just a rehash of what you are saying

    ID-X: I abide by the romantic ideals and the poet's revolution... not what really went down over the past 150 years. If it didn't occur according to my ideals, then it was wrong, and not worthy of taking into account.

    People end up in padded rooms for thinking like that, you know.
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  7. identity-X

    identity-X No Talent Assclown

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    here's just a rehash of what you are saying

    ghet: if I answer your question the inconsistency of my arguments will be exposed.



    you act like I'm denying that governments across the planet have murdered millions in the name of Marxist ideals [dunno]

    I'm simply asking why you show no consistency. you claim that you "hold ideas responsible for their outcomes", but it seems this only applies in certain cases.



    so again...

    Claiming communism per se was responsible for 20th century fascism is like claiming Christianity per se was responsible for the Crusades
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  8. Tequila Jong-il

    Tequila Jong-il SALAD TOSSER

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    wrong, turd. They envisioned a transitionary role for states. As daft as marxism is even marx and engels didnt believe that socialism would sprout from barren soil. Since these states self identified as marxist, and enacted marxists policies, it is for you to demonstrate why they are supposedley inauthentic.

    Everyone who is not a sadist utilises violence for a means rather than an end. The socialist governments used it to preserve themselves. Assuming they are legitimately marxist, which I will since you have done nothing to prove the contrary aside from repeating that they arent 'real' marxists over and over, then this is not only perfectly fine with marx, it is positively welcomed by him. Remember, he felt entire races needed to be expunged from the earth such was their inherent reactionary temperament.

    No, but I am the dopest.

    this is, id suggest, because the nation governed by their principles has become one of the strongest and most prosperous to ever grace the earth. Every nation governed by marxist principles has, without exception, become a shithole.

    This is why youre a shithead. Youve just been arguing for the entire thread that nothing can be called marxist, or be attributed to marx, unless it maintains 100% ideological purity. A standard you evidently don't apply to the 'good' things that exist within marx's work.
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  9. identity-X

    identity-X No Talent Assclown

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    still missing the forest for the trees. government control was never the goal. totalitarianism is discussed nowhere

    yet anti-marxists are ever-critical of the means and sweep the the goals under the rug. that is what puzzles me.

    nope. i've been arguing that anti-marxists typically fail to recognize that those that have murdered millions in his name did not maintain 100% ideological purity. instead, ya'll take the actions carried out in the name of Marx for granted and work backward and try to find evidence in Marx's writings that he'd support such actions. there no way you CAN understand the bigger picture by approaching it that way
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  10. And for the fifth time, because I know reading is hard, religion burns itself out.

    Marxist does not burn itself out because it sits on the laurels of some of the most well-crafted mythology and public relations efforts ever created. As long as it maintains that comfort zone, it is immune to ideological introspection and -CANNOT- evolve.

    Combine that with the fact that as long as there are people who run around with no greater than seven neurons in there head, a ~60 million AK-47 infrastructure all over the globe, and THEN a childish generalization betwen the rich and poor to fire your gun off to, ideologically, Marxism will continue it's thralldom over human imagination LONG before it sees the errors in its ways.

    Id-X... can you synthesize a materialist history -without- Marxist morality? You have this nasty habit of blaming Jesus or old white men or social problems or everything else under the sun whenever you attempt to genuinely answer that question.

    God is dead in the West and the prophet Marx killed it. There is no need even attempting to blame Jesus for anything because I -CAN- elaborate on materialist history -WITHOUT- Marxist morality!
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  11. identity-X

    identity-X No Talent Assclown

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    i don't disagree (except for the part about blaming jesus...i fucking love me some Jesus)...but it shows you miss the point entirely...

    regardless, the logic is still the same...

    Claiming communism per se was responsible for 20th century fascism is like claiming Christianity per se was responsible for the Crusades


    if you truly "hold ideas responsible for their outcomes" you'd have to agree.
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  12. Again, the logic is only the same to people who are addicted to ignoring details.

    Christianity has undergone 1,000 years of theologic and political evolution, resulting in it's stagflating presence today.

    Marxism still enjoys invincible status.
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  13. Tequila Jong-il

    Tequila Jong-il SALAD TOSSER

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    Duh, I already said they play a transitionary role in marxist theology. The point is they were the performing exactly as marx intended them to. That marx was wrong - that, surprisingly enough, killing huge numbers of 'reactionaries' doesnt give rise to the new socialist man - cannot be held as evidence that they werent truely marxist. It's ludicrous to do so

    WHAT

    THE

    FUCK?

    do you truely expect people to shrug their shoulders over millions dead and enslaved and say to themselves 'well, they had good intentions'

    But we arent talking about the bigger picture. The question at hand is a simple one 'Are the millions of deaths attributed to socialism consistent with marxist doctrine?'. The answer is an obvious yes as I have shown. Your desire to talk about the so called 'big picture' is just a means to divert attention from the fact.
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  14. identity-X

    identity-X No Talent Assclown

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    again...marx didn't advocate that particular performance. he was a realist. claims that no revolution has ever ended without massive amounts of death is not evidence that he advocated death.

    marx was wrong...very wrong (about the process anyway) for a million reasons. it wouldn't have taken fascist mass-murder in his name to show that. those people can claim marxist, but that doesn't mean they didn't miss the bigger picture, Marx's vision for the future, or Marx's intent. again I ask...

    would you say killing huge numbers of heretics and jesus non-believers provides evidence that those responsible for said killings missed the bigger picture...even as they claimed they were "true christians"?


    no...i expect them to think it atrocious. just like me.

    what's that have to do with sweeping the goals under the rug?

    Perhaps. Peaceful, classless, utopia is as well...funny Ghet isn't accusing YOU of ignoring details as well.

    You CAN'T ask the "simple question" without taking the bigger picture into account. Understanding that death and utopia are both "consistent" with Marxism requires you look at the bigger picture. Understanding that not all deaths attributed to socialism are consistent with marxist doctrine requires you look at the bigger picture.

    Intention DOES matter. As far as Marxism is concerned, the ends (IMO) often do not justify the means.

    Does that mean we can't learn from it? Abandon the ends?

    FUCK

    NO
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  15. menaz

    menaz Avant Garde

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    Jesus was a walking contradiction I know the scripture very well. It's very simple to understand why christians came up with the idea to murder those not like them. Opposition would throw a m.onkey wretch in their conformity christian society. In the bible one must believe in the christian god/jesus, if one did not this was considered an act of blasphemy which was punishable. In the bible jesus whipped some jewish ass inside the synagogue deeming them corrupt. Jesus and other memes in the bible filtered down throughout the zeitgeist into the minds of crusaders. You have to understand the writings on jesus support the notion he was a hypocrite therefore so are most christians. They can't help their hypocracy... It's the meme they blindly follow without logic. Marx's ideology was enforced much similar. If one was not marxist then he/she was of no use to the socialist society. Thus, Opposition was snuffed out. People really have to Stop claiming they see the bigger picture... espeically when they still don't understand conformity enforcement within Infrastructure.

    But I digress. Any ideological policy centered around state is bound to fail.
    Man is not perfect therefore utopia is not possible. I suggest some of you get this marxist nostalgia out of your mind and come to grips with the fact that people have been and will continue to murder to see Marxism prosper. Marx was NOT a REALIST. A realist knows UTOPIA is not possible. Marx was a dreamer without the capitalist packaging, his intentions were similar, however his packaging was differently wrapped. Marx had a poor mans complex and he wasn't against advocating violence if it would help his meme succeed to numero uno or remain on top. The one who created this instrument of death Karl Marx was anything but a nice guy he was infact a bitter angry man throughout much of his entire life.

    1. Marx advocated an economic theory which is completely flawed and will never work.
    2. Marx conflict theory advocated the violent overthrow of existing governments to achieve it.


    Marx's Priniciples much like christianities priniciples are responsible for these mass murders. You can't abslove marx of responisblity of his error in theory which has lead to countless bloody successions. For example: Mao Tse Tung (a marxists) killed 30 to 40 million during the great leap forward within a two year period.


    One other thing that comes to mind we should all support policies based on supportable economic theory rather than class envy and fantasies of utopia. Once you've unleashed and defended the idea that logic has class characteristics, all bets are off including the moral restraints that stop people from killing when it would serve their short term utilitarian purposes.

    My conclusion...

    Marx invented the idea of proletarian logic. The justifications for killing all these people in all these regimes rested to one extent or another on this marxist construct. The most generous reading of Marx's legacy is that he's guilty of depraved indifference that led to the deaths of 100 million people. No, he didn't pull the trigger, he just set the conditions where trigger pulling became inevitable.
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  16. Tequila Jong-il

    Tequila Jong-il SALAD TOSSER

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    X, Ive had fun trouncing you but youve now grown tedius. Anyone familiar with marx knows i'm correct and even those unfamiliar can, just from the scant excerpts ive provided in this thread, see that youre either a brazen liar or simply deluded.
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  17. Intention doesn't matter if it does not take the system it is dependant on into account.

    EXAMPLE: I intend to feed my kids. I'll kill everyone who has money that will give me the ability to purchase food for them. I suppose this makes me righteous because my intention is pure.

    ID-X, all you are suggesting is that as long as a person has good PR and can convince people of sufficient "intention" then that person can get away with genocide.

    Like I said a long time ago, when I enter politics, it will be under the flag of Democratic Socialism, simply because they can walk with impunity.
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