Someone explain Sicko to me as though I'm a 3 year old. Why wouldn't it work?

Discussion in 'IntroSpectrum' started by BlackSoultan Ad Infinitum, Jul 10, 2007.

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  1. BlackSoultan Ad Infinitum

    BlackSoultan Ad Infinitum aka Billy Shoreview

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    Okay, seeing as how the other Sicko thread was ruined for seven pages of identity X not realizing menaz is an imbecile (literally; look it up), I feel the need to ask a pointed question with this thread:

    WHY WOULDN'T UNIVERSAL MEDICINE WORK HERE?

    Someone has to be able to prove Moore is lying. Not about the insurance companies finding ways not to pay you, that's obvious. That's the point of the business they are in.

    But can someone show me that he's lying about the little girl refused life-saving service because she needed to go to Kaiser. Someone tell me he's lying about someone getting an inhaler for 5 cents in Cuba where it costs 120 where they are from and we cannot get this kind of care or even a slight discount for the closest thing America has seen to a hero since the revolutionary war. Someone tell me he's lying about it working AT ALL in other countries.

    I don't need to believe for a moment that it works as well as he says it does in Britain, France and Canada and Cuba, I just need to know it works AT ALL because it is not working here. I don't need to tell you what happened to my girl's grandmother at Kaiser last year, but it is retarded. Subpar care is an understatement.

    I come from a fam who's been known for its existence within the best medical/dental care in my country for going on seventy years. I am not an american and could care very little about the health care system here because apparently, it's cheaper for me to fly to the Bahamas to dear old Dad then it would be for me to catch a cold in L.A.

    I will tell you that Cuba is known for amazing healthcare. Not free bad healthcare, but damn near free amazing healthcare. How the hell do they do that? How the hell do they do that there AND in England? Failed communism AND democracy?

    Can someone tell me how in a country where we pay forty percent of our income in the wealthiest nation in the world, we can't do that here? Fuck the political scare tactics of "oh, stupid republicans think it will lead to communism because Ron Reagan said so on a record in the fifties" crap. We know it would not lead to communism NOW because it HASN'T in any of the nations where we see it work. We know it won't lead to any more beauraucracy than the HMO's would.

    So why not?
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  2. Offbeat

    Offbeat New Member

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    universal health care wont work because the people who'll end up paying for it wont want to support other people. they would rather spend their own money rather than keep a poor child alive who'll end up having more poor children and further draining society.
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  3. Offbeat

    Offbeat New Member

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    the truth hurts though so just ignore me
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  4. BlackSoultan Ad Infinitum

    BlackSoultan Ad Infinitum aka Billy Shoreview

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    Don't get your panties in a bunch. That's not an answer simply because we are already built for it. We ALREADY pay for shit we otherwise wouldn't pay for, that's why we pay such high taxes, right? I mean, aren't we paying something like 13 billion a month on a war that seemingly even republican lawmakers don't want?

    So why not healthcare if it would greatly improve...EVERYONE? The poorest in britain apparently have better healthcare than our doctors and lawyers. So why not just use the infrastructure we have and use it to do this?
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  5. Tequila Jong-il

    Tequila Jong-il SALAD TOSSER

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    No. If you are reffering to the study I think you are reffering to it found that poor britains were marginally more healthy than wealthy americans but explicitly ruled out healthcare as a cause for the disparity.
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  6. menaz

    menaz Avant Garde

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    You didn't follow anything in that debate I had. As usually you made stupid comments because that is what you do, parrot! If you had followed it you wouldn't be such a stupid fuck when it comes to my position on the issue.

    I'm not arguing for the current state of affairs I don't think anyone with a heart is. I mean, We can all clearly tell Ted kennedy's ACT turned out great.

    I agree with moore that the current system really isn't good for the 15% of americans who are uninsured, you can thank ted kennedy. I also agree with moore the current state of Hmo's is rediculous, again thank ted kennedy. What we don't agree on is, I want a perfect-market apporach which we currently do not have. Moore wants use to basically give up our standard of living so health-care is a status quo across the board. However, It's been suggested to me that people who work and earn a modest salary if they want better care rather than the status quo and long waits provided under government control care they'll have to pay extra for it. So not only are these people with a modest salary giving up their hard earned income to higher taxes, not only are these hard working poeple servants, but they also would have to pay extra if they didn't like their status quo care and long waits. (which is ironic if you consider the revolutionary war was fought over higher-taxes.) But The real slap in the face is, bums aren't putting in any money because they don't work which means you can't tax them. And the poor-people who do work I doubt could pay the higher-taxes especially in america. Therefore, your back at square one -- Ted kennedy.

    Moore wants a socialist-government controlling wel-fare state where noone works because everything is just handed to them. I wounder what the unemployment statistics are in england, france, canada, and cuba. There has to be a reason why we're the number one economy. Food for thought: Economically speaking If we did what moore suggests our economy would nolonger be the richest. Thus, I wonder what the state of our health would be like then. Even further down the shitter than it already is, I would postulate.


    Does a welfare state teach individual accountabilty? Democrates want everything to be a wel-fare state with no individual accountabilty. That is how the democrats stay in power and keep you the little guy. They aren't fighting for the little guy, They are fighting to keep you the little guy. Think about it, If you become the big guy like them, Who would be the little guy then? Why would you need them? You wouldn't. Individual Accountiblity and a change in market will play a major operational role in fixing the current health-care problems.




    I see no reason to give non-working bums like you saw in the beginning of the movie my tax dollars, What purpose does he serve other than a parasite? If he makes it good for him, if he doesn't I don't see the lose. I see no reason to have OUR Government be involved anymore than they already are peroid. You don't want our government spying on us do you? Well, I don't want our government controlling our health-care. We all saw how beautifully our government handled Katrina. You really want our government incharge of your health? Or would you rather make those grown-up choices at fair or cheaper prices yourself?


    Regardless of whichever health-care system people are in. The result is always the same... Doesn't matter if it's canada, france, england, or espeically cuba. People die. By the way, Cuba health-care system was shown listed by michael moore himself below america's.

    Sign me up for the cuban healthcare plan: http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm

    If you can't see the one-sideness michael moore presents to you in those other countries are anecdotes then you're a Moron-follower!!!


    I seem to remember dictatorships in such fine countries like nazi germany and the soviet union having medicine controlled by the state, where everyone had this health-care, but sadly no one had rights. If you dangle a carrot the rabbit will mindlessly follow.
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  7. BlackSoultan Ad Infinitum

    BlackSoultan Ad Infinitum aka Billy Shoreview

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    See, I'm just quoting the movie, but tell me more about this. Do you have better healthcare than what they say in the Movie about American healthcare? They specifically said that the worst of you have better healthcare than the best of us.

    I need the opinion of the brits here: is it really free like how they say it is? You can just go to the hospital? No insurance cards? No insurance defence attorneys? No lawyers, no depositions, no HMO's?

    Y'all just go into a hospital with whatever's in y'all pockets and you can get a check up or treated for a flu or some shit? Get a burted appendix fixed, some Chemo?

    Is it really like that in the UK?

    And Menaz: I will not ever read what you have to say. You just talk in circles.
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  8. menaz

    menaz Avant Garde

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    How am I talking in circles? You don't even read anything I say!


    "When Moore visits a British pharmacy in which all drugs cost ten bucks, what he isn’t showing is who invented the drugs: evil American profit-hungry pharmaceutical firms that would effectively be shut down if there were a $10 price limit on all prescriptions. Firms spend hundreds of millions developing and testing a drug while the patent clock ticks down, only to be forced to start over if the drug is rejected by the FDA. If a drug is approved, they have only a few years to recoup costs (and the cost of all the previous failures) by charging "exorbitant" market prices because the drug will soon go generic, i.e. non-exorbitant, i.e. virtually free. The Brits freeload on American technology. Being regulated to death is the reason the once-vibrant European pharmaceutical industry has been lapped by its U.S. counterpart in the last few decades. Want your drugs invented and open-heart surgery performed by the people who gave us FEMA, Amtrak and the CIA? Does the Post Office do a better job than FedEx? I can't mail a package via the federal government without waiting in line 20 minutes--and the Post Office is the best-run federal agency. Side note:On top of provincial sales taxes of anywhere from 6 to 9%, Canada has a national sales tax of 6%. which is, up to a 15% sales tax. Not so free after all is it? And that don't even include income taxes."

    http://blogs.nypost.com/movies/archives/2007/06/kyle_smith_on_m.html

    If you still don't understand: No U.S. innovation in medicine equals no $10dollar meds for free loaders!

    Ok big guy, I talk in circles, but you try to fit circular pegs in square holes.
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  9. Tequila Jong-il

    Tequila Jong-il SALAD TOSSER

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    I cannot conceive of basic nhs healthcare being superior to that of private care offered to high paid professionals in the US. The actual quality of care given by the american system is amongst the best in the world. The reason it lies so low in the WHO rankings(which is what I typically see cited when the americn system is criticised) is because they dont acutally measure a health systems performance, but how closely a health system resembles the WHO's concept of a what a health system should be.

    Here is the paper which describes how the WHO measure each countries health achievement: http://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper28.pdf

    As you can see only two of the five components actually attempt to measure the quality of care provided. The remaining three all measure inequality of provision without reference to actual quality. So for example a country which offered care ranging from good to excellent would rank below one which offered generally poor care on health distribution.

    It is free at the point of use provided the treatment/drug is offered by the sanctioning body(prescriptions require a small fee).
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  10. identity-X

    identity-X No Talent Assclown

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    that's insane... :eek:
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  11. BlackSoultan Ad Infinitum

    BlackSoultan Ad Infinitum aka Billy Shoreview

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    You don't understand how big a deal that is, dude. They'll charge us 10 dollars a pill for vicodin or some shit. 12/pill for zoloft.
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  12. Offbeat

    Offbeat New Member

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    and we're already in massive debt

    why add more debt to support those who cant support themselves
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  13. BlackSoultan Ad Infinitum

    BlackSoultan Ad Infinitum aka Billy Shoreview

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    Simple: reorganize what we spend on. Less on the war, more on healthcare.
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  14. identity-X

    identity-X No Talent Assclown

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    here fucking here...

    people are all worried that it's going to cost us - the little people - sooooo much, but it wouldnt have to be that way if were weren't throwing away BILLIONS upon BILLIONS for this clusterfuck of a war. It wouldn't have to be that way if the government didn't provide BILLIONS and BILLIONS in tax breaks to huge corporations.

    this always kills me...it's the same line of thinking that people use when arguing against other types of welfare. a small percentage of people abuse the system (the type of people who support this line of thinking usually put those who are actively looking for work in this category as well) and it becomes a justification for keeping the millions of others who ARE working, who ARE "contributing to society...but who are STILL struggling...from getting the care they need.
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  15. Offbeat

    Offbeat New Member

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    the war is money well spent. in fact, i think the government spends the best on the military, the space programs, the postal service, police + fire department, and transit.

    healthcare shouldnt be a right, it should cost something. those who cant afford it should live without it, or try 2 afford it.

    listen soultan, u are a rich person. dont deny it. u are wealthy. good 4 u. but there's people like me and my family who aren't poor by any means but aren't rich. sacrificing tax money is a real burden. more taxes would be worse

    if u want 2 help pay for healthcare, set up a charity. donate to a charity. u and id-x could pool some money and take care of a needy family or something. but when u force people who dont want to participate into it thru taxes, i think that is wrong.
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  16. menaz

    menaz Avant Garde

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    How can you say there aren't Bums abusing the state-welfare at the working mans exspense? You can't say that because you know there are worthless bums who live off the free hand outs at the working mans expense. I made it quite clear that guy in the beginning of the film is the type i'm talking about, he isn't looking for shit. The Justification for the millions of others who ARE working, WHO are contributing to society, Is the Perfect-market sentiment. The decentralization which gives patients more choice.

    Please, Those type of worthless bums still living with their mommy and banking off government welfare are doing nothing productive but taking the income out of working classes pocket which could other-wise be put toward something more productive like the working mans children.
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  17. menaz

    menaz Avant Garde

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    Good points.
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  18. BlackSoultan Ad Infinitum

    BlackSoultan Ad Infinitum aka Billy Shoreview

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    I've been rich and poor, employed and unemployed, and hence covered and uncovered by healthcare. I myself don't feel the effects of it often, because my fam holds me down with that.

    Rich: don't get it twisted: for the past 30 years, my father has been well off. I guess for some wealthy families, that extends to 30 year old children, but not in mine. I've been homeless and I've been a baller in my adult years. Right now, to be honest, I'm in a horrible financial position and am very down on my "luck", so I fall into that category of the uninsured.

    My point is this: there are 40-50 million uninsured people in this society. There are probably 100 million more that are just one layoff away from joining those ranks. It is very easy for someone to fall to the uninsured or to being eligible for welfare (as I am eligible for, but pride keeps me from doin' it) because I have seen it happen to me and greater men than I. I've seen millionaires fall and doctors and lawyers and business men and tech people lose jobs.

    But for those who have "insurance", I'm saying that their situation is still worse than a universal health system.

    As for the war, iLL Rich, you are in an overwhelming minority about it being "money well spent" even amongst your lawmaking conservative brethren in DC...

    Since even the conservatives don't want the war anymore and democrats don't want the war (even the ones who voted for it at first), then we need an exit strategy from there and work on putting money into a universal healthcare system. I am just left remembering what it was like when I tore my ACL in law school and sinc e it was 2 days before my second year, I wasn't covered. It took me two years even with my connections to get that fixed. I - like Mike and his people - had to leave the country to seek such healthcare.

    I just think it's horrible that even what Teq describes as happening in HIS country is so much better than what happens here. Why do pharmaceutical companies get to charge whatever they want where a fucking HERO from ground zero (a voulunteer, mind you: someone not PAID to be there) can just sit back and basically die because an inhaler costs hundreds of dollars here, but five cents in cuba.

    FIVE FUCKING CENTS IN CUBA. You can't even get a ball of gum out of a vending machine here for that price. Nickels are useless. You know how many kids are walking around with respiratory problems that are forced to just live with it (or die) because a fucking inhaler costs so much?

    I mean, I was not clear on this because growing up, you're right, I was very well taken care of. Healthcare for us was the medical samples my dad would bring home. Also, I wasn't in the U.S. under an HMO.

    So lets think about this: if we redesign what we choose to spend our money on, then we are gonna be in business. Is healthcare for even the least of us not as compelling enough of a state interest as diversity in colleges and universities? Because THAT passed muster. We have Affirmative Action but we have cancer. [dunno]

    *and by the way: college is free in parts of europe too, and their public education often times even surpasses our private schools...

    WHAT THE FUCK IS GOING ON IN AMERICA WHEN ALL OF THIS GOES TO SHIT IN MY SHORT LIFETIME??!?
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  19. identity-X

    identity-X No Talent Assclown

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    i didn't say that. read again.
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  20. menaz

    menaz Avant Garde

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    You tried to imply i'm lumping. I made it quite clear i'm not lumping.
    I'm setting the record straight.
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