Discussion in 'The Sanctuary' started by TheBigPayback, Apr 13, 2012.
good point, would i find this diagram in the Bible?
No but to depend on a works based salvation, denying the trinity (which includes the holy spirit) could that grieve the holy spirit..i dunno maybe.
If jesus IS God, and u dont believe him could that possibly effect salvation? I dunno maybe.
If u put your faith in the law, and the up keep of it rather than in the sacrifice of Jesus and his imeasurable grace may u be judged specificly by them? I dunno maybe.
These issues seem to me to be in a very vital area, in a certain shade of grey. I assure u the bible is black and white and should we be unsure about anything that has to do with salvation as a believer. Absolutely not.
Does the diagram have to be in the bible or, the info it contains?
Are salvation issues, doctrinal issues, essential issues, non essential issues, and non issues presented in the bible. Certainly friend.
i don't see how anyone could depend on a works based salvation. i mean why did Yahweh send Yeshua as a sacrificial lamb in the first place? but i don't know about the trinity? is trinity mentioned in the Scriptures? i'm not even sure Yeshua called himself Yahweh, or even bothered to make it a point, which you think he would be pretty emphatic about if it's a point of salvation.
i don't think Yeshua himself even claimed to be Yahweh, did he? and even if he did, i don't know that he asked for us to acknowledge him as Yahweh. only to accept him as our sacrifice and to obey the Law. so if it was so important to acknowledge Yeshua as Yahweh, wouldn't he have made it apparent?
i think by trying to obey the Law and honour Yahweh, one would be acknowledging their gratitude for Yeshua's sacrifice. by disregarding the Law, i don't see how one could be honestly grateful for Yahweh's blessing of Yeshua the sacrificial lamb for man
i haven't even read the Book, so i'm hesitant to be confident in too much regarding it. but so far, the most black and white fact i tend to take from my limited knowledge of the Scriptures is that Yeshua made it a point to emphasize the importance of the Scripture (Torah) and the Law and trying to obey them. and perhaps by doing what Yeshua asked of us, we are accepting that he died for us? so far, everything i've read where Yeshua himself spoke or was quoted, he is practicing or preaching good works and the Law Moses was given. and the overriding message also appears to be, do not judge, do not condemn, but love and forgive and obey Yahweh
true, but who decides what are salvation, doctrine, essential and non essential issues? surely we can not be the authors of this? not even the apostles have this authority
Yeshua emphasized the importance of the Scripture and the Law. he always obeyed the Scripture and the Law. if He is our Shepherd and our way to salvation, everything he said and did is essential, no?
The bible does.
that's what i feel. so that diagram ain't definitely accurate or even necessary
The pharasees apparantly felt he was claiming to be, as they charged him with blasphemy. This was the reason he was crucified remember. They also charged him with breaking the sabbath.
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God," John 5:18. "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God," John 10:33.
He also allowed people to worship him, so if he isnt God wouldnt that be a problem. Didnt timothy recognize him as God. And peter.
Didnt he say Me and my father ARE ONE. If youve seen me youve seen my father etc etc.
i didn't know why they killed him tbh. i guess i thought jealousy, lol
good point. but saying Yahweh is your father isn't claiming to be Yahweh is it?
ok, better point i guess. but isn't there at least one passage where he tells someone not to worship him, to get off their knees, something like no good comes from me but from the Father above? i don't know if Yeshua let people worship him, that is contradictory as it defies the first Commandment
i know nothing of peter and timothy recognizing Yeshua as Yahweh. but had peter or timothy ever even seen Yahweh? i thought only Moses or one of the old prophets had ever seen Yahweh himself?
so there are direct quotes where Yeshua himself claims to be Yahweh? are there not also contradictory quotes where Yeshua denies being Yahweh?
it's not quite that straight forward.
according to the vid payback posted there is no 'y' equivalent in greek, or 'sh' equivalent, etc. now while i personally have no knowledge of ancient greek language, i find this easy to believe. different languages often have a different collection of sounds they use. jesus has been transliterated into different languages spanning the globe, most of which sound nothing like the english pronunciation 'gee-zus.' jesus (or yeshua) is not at all unique in this regard.
we don't even pronounce countries names the way their own peoples do, even in our modern 'multicultural' society. you know that country spain? yea, it's actually called españa. and their language comes from the same indo-european roots as english. now imagine 1st century greeks dealing with a prophet who spoke aramaic, two languages which are completely unrelated to one another and sound fundamentally different to one another.
Word: Sabbath. Hewbrew: shabbath in the Greek: sabbaton
Notice they did not put a hard Z in the greek, to make the Shabbath into Zabbath. Like they did with Jezus. There is a SHH sound in the Hewbrew Shabbat. In the greek they drop the H sound and made it Sabbath not Zabbath. Why Jezues then from Yahshuah? Cause they honor their idols...another Gospel.
If you want knowlege and understanding: Get out your bible and be ready to learn.
exodus, you would be very wise to leave here until you get some good instsurction. Payback knows not the Elohim of the universe, again, he's a cool brother but he will lead astray. Belive me. PM me.
in fact here is my email: firstname.lastname@example.org
if you read my post you would see that the claim is apparently that the 'sh' consonant doesn't exist in ancient greek. if you have some evidence that this is incorrect then i'd be interested in seeing it.
like i said i'll watch your video (or at least part of it) at some point. but for the time being i don't see why it should require a 2 1/2 hour video to demonstrate that there is in fact a letter for 'y' and a letter for 'sh' in ancient greek.
Watch the video when you get a chance. . . and until you do, do not think for a second you know the truth, until you hear it.
also what I just posted should beg serious questions concerning the issue.,,
Lol why would u tell him to do what u wont.(reg)
i think it is as simple as that. despite ancient greek not having "y" or "sh", making the sounds are what is necessary to pronounce a name correctly. and same applies to even different texts, cyrillic, etc
i mean bosnian for example, no "y" either, however "j" is used instead, sarajevo, tanya, moja, etc just cause there's no "y" don't mean they can't make the appropriate sound to say the name properly. like spanish with the two l's representing a "y" sound or c representing "th" depending on placement
i don't quite get your last 2 sentences, first paragraph. if what people called Yeshua to his face was "Yeshua" (ye shoo ah), if that needs to be spelt jesoah in bosnian or something else in spanish, don't matter, you can still say the sounds "ye shoo ah"
and your last paragraph, i get what you're saying. that's english for us i guess. we call it france, spain, mexico, instead of francey, espagna, or mehico, etc. but we're still quite capable of pronouncing the country properly
i feel like "jesus" isn't even a close translation or transliteration of Yeshua at all. like it's not even an attempt, so it's not far fetched for me to think it more representative of something else other than the Messiah's real name
but i still ain't watched the clip
now if ancient greek had absolutely nothing to represent the sounds "ye - shoo - ah" it's a little more acceptable. but i doubt they never made the sounds "ye" "shoo" or "ah" for any other words in their language, just my guess
that's a really good point. you can't explain away one thing when there's no consistency when it comes to transliterating "sh"
if it don't feel right i won't accept it as absolute truth. i don't accept too many things as absolute truth anyway, absolutists generally suck. thanks for the advice though, i'll hit you up with some more questions
Tldr this thread tbh
But, I don't understand the reasoning behind using the Father's true name. The Israelites took the command to not take the Father's name in vain so seriously that they substituted names (eg Adonai). If the original recipients feared God such that they would not print/speak his name, why should we? I think its an enormously arrogant stance to take.
This is a discussion I’ve had in the past with people. I don’t think anyone denies that YHWY is the Father’s actual name so debating that is rather pointless. The point really is are we taking His name in vain when saying Lord or God or even Father. I think the video did a good job of dealing with that.
I notice here that Coup says “Yahshuah” and exodus says “Yeshua” which one of you is correct? If you can only be saved by the right name which one is it? Hebrew has no Vowels as Payback mentioned so we’re really guessing when filling in the blanks. I’ve found that it’s really a matter of petty semantics. My way is right and yours is wrong and evil kind of thing. The video did a good job of showing that Jesus is a transliteration and you can’t make a straight translation from one language to another language if the languages are missing letters and sounds. If a girl’s name is Kathy and you are translated it to a language that doesn’t have the ‘TH’ sound then how can you still call her Kathy in that other language? Add on top of that if that language doesn’t have the letter ‘y’ then what? I’ve also heard that Ancient Greek uses the Hey-soos sound like Hey Zeus which supposedly proves that Jesus is meant to be Zeus but the pronunciation of Zeus being “zoos” is actually recent. In ancient Greek it would be pronounced “Zevs” and not the more common today Zoos sound. I’ll try to find the wall carving image that also shows that.
I had a friend tell me that the Greek city names that sound like Zeus like Parnassus and Tarsus etc were named after Zeus but that’s not true either. Those cities didn’t have those spellings in the time of ancient Greece. I’ve even had people point to statues of Zeus and say they look like Jesus so that proves that they are the same but I’ve seen statues of King David that look like Zeus as well. The Greek artists had certain styles for their paintings and statues and all of the looked basically the same.
Plus the name Jesus/Joshua was very common in that day. We even see Joshua translated Jesus in Acts 7:45 in the KJV.
45Which also our fathers that came after brought in with Jesus into the possession of the Gentiles, whom God drave out before the face of our fathers, unto the days of David;
This is talking about Joshua in context but shows that the name was quite common in that time. It was translated Iesus in the 1611 KJV and the Greek word is “Ἰησοῦ” and the transliteration is “Iēsou”
This is another site I’ve seen that addresses this issue if anyone is interesting in seeing both sides of the debate so you can make an informed decision.
I’ve never heard anyone with a real background in Ancient Languages and History make this claim. I’d think that as hated as Christianity is every studied atheist would pull that trump card in these public debates and kill the discussion dead on the spot but they don’t do it because they’d get run out of the place because it's just not true. I only hear it made over the internet.
Another thing I'd like to know is what are some things that Yahshuah said that Jesus didn't say and vice versa? I know a Mormon can probably give me some things because they have the book of Mormon and Abraham etc but if you are working from the bible only what are some things that Jesus said that are damnable and false and that Yahshua said that are the truth and nothing but the truth? Just curious because I see a lot of claims that Jesus was just a made up character so if he was made up then there must be some things that we can point too that are false.
I just felt like chiming in after seeing this thread.
in the Greek they did properly translate Yahshua's name: it was something (my spelling is off here): Iosupua or something. Which they pronounced Yahshua...it was in the 1611.
They did call him Jesus with a hard z to honor their idol zues...
random, welcome and did you watch the entire video ? a lot of the questions you have are actually answered ...
Separate names with a comma.