Reality & Truth

Discussion in 'IntroSpectrum' started by Yahunyahti, Aug 26, 2007.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. menaz

    menaz Avant Garde

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2004
    Messages:
    16,807
    You're going all the way with this huh? You know alot of liberals are going to have to be sluaghtered for the better good. They're humanistic feelings will never agree with these ingenious ambitions.

    perhaps. Will human brains eventually be placed in AI or is that a seperate issue?

    Number 1.) Why are human beings necessary on a moon like Titian if you have AI?

    Number 2.) How does one create on a none atmosheric enviroment with no sun exsposure and expect human survival? I can see why that holds us back, What would we do for heat? Also Is it possible that in another galaxy somewhere a solar system similar to our own exists?



    When I speak of the global mind I'm speaking on the interconnected evolvement that has been networked into our minds and continues too. The Global mind is the cause of a cellular gene which evolved from mycobacteria, microbial cells, DNA strands, mirco-organisms, porifera, onychophoran, mollusks, echinoderms, crustaceans, chordates, insects, reptilians, mammals, primates, humans, memes. And next transhumans then posthumans.

    interface would be a good synonym for it, but the problem is we aren't always dealing with compatibility within the global mind. The only way to ensure compatibility would be through conformity enforcement, inner-judges, creative bickering, resource shifters and intergouping tournaments.

    What I'm talking about with cybernetics is how we account for this interconnected communication and organisation. How we will processes this information, how we will react to this information, and how we can change things to better evolve our tasks in solidarity.



    You are wise to the future, but where the problem lies is you will need other minds to anonymously agree. Other wise you're no better than an arm-chair revolutionary and your task will fail.


    Number 1.) I'd agree it's possible advanced AI could figure out the unification of electromagnetics between weak and strong forces.

    Number 2.) Plus we both know population control as alternative will never work liberals would have a hissy fit.

    number 3.) what is the point of humans needing resources if we're not going to have bodies made of fleash anyway?

    Sounds to me, you don't give a fuck about the human speices as long as they create the AI, nanotechnology, and biomechinics, before their exitenstance is over.

    Question: Do You want to rule the Galaxies?
    test
  2. Western Leftist Environmentalists and Neo-Luddite Conservatives of -EVERY- Nation will most likely unify and find common grounds against the Singularity, largely on moral grounds disguised as "health concerns". Humans will reproduce and recoevr their desire to commit suicide against superior forces. We always have and we always will. I really don't care. I trust our primitive sex drives more than I trust the words of Man.

    No. Humans will always propigate and if all turns out well, AI will invent the technology that will allow humans who disagree with It to flee into the stars with ease. Humans will always find a way to survive once our civilizational infrastructure has shifted to adapt to the barren void of space.

    It's best if technology makes small, but meaningful steps into our eventual destiny. The moon is a few days away, and lasting results can be easily experimented upon. When I said the Moon, I literally meant our own Moon.

    My scenario included the Moon, which is either blatently exposed to the Sun or turn it's night, is murderously frigid. The probability that a human-friendly biosphere (which is generally called Terran) exists elsewhere is high. But our technology does not allow that thesis to expand beyond thought experiment and spectrographic readouts due to astrologicla distances.

    You mean the evolutionary threads of neural development that persist from species to species?

    Anthropomorphic ;D

    Again, these are Marxist Posthumanist goals AKA attempting to implement emergent technologies for ooey-gooey warm and great public relation photo ops. Let the smiles and expectations be damned. This new technology will change not only how we interact with the univese, but how we interact with eacho ther, and how we interact with OURSELVES. Definitions like soul, human, intelligence, sentient, freedom, ethics, rights, tyranny, emotion... all of these will endure drastic bouts of constant redescription. The Industrial Age is a fantastic case study. While the physical aspects of mankind was largely indirectly changed, the mental intepretation of how the universe functions and what our role is was flipped on its head, chopped up, spat out, shat on, dragged through the mud, and hundreds of millions killed each other in the process. The great science that changed the game in the Industrial age was Statistics. Posthumanism will do more than observe massive flows of mankind in a new way. It will change every individual in the flow physically. I can't even attempt to imagine trying to take our meek and useless understanding of this Post-Marxist era and forcing it onto what to expect from this emergent technological era. I can only hope to remain adaptive enough to survive while trying to comprehend development enough to achieve a simple, but important goal.

    Ahhh.. that is the joys of Posthumanism. It requires no fanfare. It requires no protests. It requires no reprogramming of the youth, no indoctronization of academia. It requires no cult mentality. It doesn't even require massive numbers of people. It doesn't require nationalization or unification of minds at all. All it requires are savants that naturally occur and to direct them into paths that leave impacts. The only people that can suppress this technology will do so via Environmentalism. And for reasons that even I would agree with that I cannot go into now because it is really, really, really, really complex. Here's a hint: it has nothing to do with making trees happier. It's about power stability.

    Population control is best achieved via Democracy. As long as people believe they can control their destiny, you will find the iron hand of direct tyranny wildly ineffective.

    Humans will always need resources. No matter what form we end up as. All life requires resources. All of it. Right down to the mere cellular matter we are currently made of or the transitior-based/foldspace networks potential we have yet to achieve.. tproblem remains the same: FRICTION. Heat loss and dissipation that will always resutl in the requirement of external sources of energy to compensate.

    continued below...
    test
  3. I don't give a fuck about humanity's temporal moral concerns. Joesph Stalin managed to kill millions of people and had the enter teenage population of Western cultures clap along in the 1930s. That's the power of public relations. That's how easy humans are easy to confuse. I don't give a fuck about the masses. Let them lose themselves in their dream state of quasi-civilization. They are happy that way, and as long as they are happy, they will not interefere. It's those in power that concern me, specifically, those who seek Marxist goals. It's a complex relationship that I am attempting to address in the book I am working on.

    I want humanity to progress. But in order to do so, they have to be strong and brave enough to deny the seduction of Marx and say "No! A peon's paradise ISN'T my end-game!" And if they can't do that, then Posthumanism will crush them where they stand. We will adapt. We've endured worse.
    test
  4. Yahunyahti

    Yahunyahti New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2007
    Messages:
    6,016
    I hate to throw a curve ball into this nerd fest (no offense) . . .

    What is the point of all this? So humanity evolves, but you're not concerned with humanity's moralities. So what the fuck are you trying to preserve? And why?

    This is so ridiculously shallow it actually borders complete gibberish.
    test
  5. menaz

    menaz Avant Garde

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2004
    Messages:
    16,807
    You mean the primitive sex drives you want to strip from human anatomy? Why should your word be trusted over theirs?



    How will they survive espiecally if the AI takes over? How do you know this for sure? or is this just a ghet-imation(estimation)? To make the comparison it would be like me looking retrospectively at the cambrain explotion fossil records seeing point blank the intermiates indeed died off. So what i'm asking is, what is the need of humans after we have AI?

    What do you think about the robotic-drones we've placed in our galaxy to places like mars and the one now that has been sent to the dawf-planet plato?

    since it doesn't... are you postulating a enclosed earth-like bioshpere infrasturcture built within the moons surface?


    fundumentally speaking, you're correct.

    I don't think so. Explain.

    I agree posthumanism like the industrial-revolution will flip technology on it's head but where I worry is humans don't fit into the new technological equation shortly there after. Stop thinking i'm some post-marxist. I have no problem with technology advancement. But I do have a problem with no human survival and becoming a neural-brain-electrical-current-piece-of-biomachinery. I think I'll stop questioning your morals because you seem to be amoral. You're probabally the most honest person on this site when it comes to how you really feel though.

    I agree it will. However, I'm concerned You've mistaken my speech for post-marxism rhetoric. That's not even what I was suggesting. What I was saying is we are now superorganism survivalists but in the next leap evolution will be technological implamented thus casing a super-biomachinary survivalist. I fail to see how I'm reling on post-marxist "ooey-gooey warmth". All I'm saying is inorder for you're plan to work you have to utilize these five techniques with an iron fist: (no pun intended) conformity enforcement, inner-judges, creative bickering, resource shifters and intergouping tournaments. Until posthumanism takes over.

    Lets keep it real. posthumanism is nothing more than a powerful meme at the momment. It does infact have a cult following. It will be reprogramming humans into posthumans. we've already showcased it's an indoctronization of academia.

    One doesn't need a majority... In Germany's July, 1932, elections, 63% of the voters cast their ballots against the Nazis. By the November elections, the anti-Nazi vote was even larger. Yet Adolf Hitler was able to achieve dictatorial power only four months later on March 23, 1933, in part because his storm troopers, like the militant gangs controlled by the muslim fundamentalists today were willing to murder their opponents. It only takes a minority to seize control of a country or technology in this case, especially if that minority is enthusiastic about using violence. But the point was inorder to get post-humanism acceptance you're going to have to enter a intergouping tournament.

    So you're plan is to creative bicker and hope they resource shift?
    test
  6. menaz

    menaz Avant Garde

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2004
    Messages:
    16,807
    will our only posthumanist resource consist of photons?



    Inother words: keep all the marbles rolling in the same direction. Sedating them sort like pop-culture and Tv has. While you master-mind you're tactics and then advance it before they know what hits them. That's pretty brillant I've had similar thoughts.

    I chuckled. LMAO!

    There will be a confontational WAR whether you agree or not the path will be a violent one. Not everyone, remains with their head in the sand like an ostridge. If you were some random dolt spouting off I would ignore you, but you have a logical well thought-out reason for such a progessive action. Tell me once the books finished I'd love to read more indepth about this future you invision. I agree, Marxism is a very suductive drug almost as powerful as the three main religions.
    test
  7. Yahunyahti

    Yahunyahti New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2007
    Messages:
    6,016
    Damn, you posted all that one minute after I posted my little snippit.

    [funny]
    test
  8. Morals are transitory and reflect social expectations within specific environments.

    Once, it is against the moral doctrine of God himself if you wasted water if you were born into a desert tribe 200 years ago.

    Opinions are for the poor. Morals and emotions are for the rich.

    I seek to preserve humanity simply because we are fantastic transducers.
    test
  9. Yahunyahti

    Yahunyahti New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2007
    Messages:
    6,016
    We are in agreement on this.


    Where does your preference for one conductor of energy over another come from? What makes you prefer the human conductor over say . . . a machine conductor? And why do you care about conducting and converting energy at all? Why have a preference?

    Or perhaps I should ask, "How is it that you have a preference;" "How is it that you care about conducting energy at all;" and "How is it that you have come to prefer the human conductor over a machine conductor;" and "Where does this preference originate?".

    I have rephrased it because we both know that why is an emotional question. How is a scientific question. Where is a geological question. When is a historical question.

    I'll try to keep it precise for you.
    test
  10. The sex drive is one of evolution's most prized posessiosn, and few few forces in the world can overtake it. Governments are currently at war with it right now and are failing in their mission. I do not wish to remove the sex drive as much as make it more functional for our eventual change of biome. In in our current world, eugenics are no longer is overtly controlled by the state. It is currently controlled by economy.

    There isn't a need for humans now. There never will be a need for humans, nor was there ever a need for humans. Humans will either flee or worship AI. They can attempt to fight against it, but governments, for the most part, will still consider suicide illegal. ;D Regardless of their action, either it will be dictated by the unimaginable intelectual abilities of AI.

    Robotic drones make excellent and cheap scouts. Robotic workers would make perfect tools for building underground facilities in extraterran environments that allow humans to experiment with the affects of gravitational changes to geneology. Doing that throughout the galaxy will still be expensive no matter how cheap the technology becomes. Simple economics will dictate that personal biotechnological intervention will be cheaper than the overall long term cost of dragging the infrastructure along.

    It is a gamble I am taking because as it currently stands... we are fucked. The myths are wrong about technology. Technology hasn't increased the destructive capability of mankind. Instead, our dependancy on the infrastructure we create has become tighter, allowing one person to have an affect on a great many number of event with but a single action. Eventually, a threshold will be reached where we will become machines in the network of infrastructure and nothing more. Communism attempted to force this threshold to occur. Now, it does so but more subtley. Governments have taken the current form of "labor for luxury exchange" to achieve practically the same ends. That appears to be the reasonable path (the anthropomorphic definition of reasonable, btw) to achieve the desired dependancy threshold. You may or may not see it, but we are already machines anyways.

    Posthumanist technology has many ways of getting to a desireable threshold for specific outcomes,some which can be achieved under moral fabric, others which can be achieved more effectively without it.

    Posthumanism is not a meme. It is the entire economic foundation of America.... right now. Pharmecutical companies? They don't exist to cure diseases anymore. Nor do they make money just treating the sick. Again, simple economics will suggest that if your primary patients are sick in terms of terminal illness, chances are, they are probably poor. How much money can an industry make robbing poor people? Noooo you GOTTA step it up eventually and start robbing middle class and upper class! And THAT has been the economic foundation of modern america for quite some time now. Designer drugs. Prozac. Anything behavoiral modification. People scoop it up and continue to do so. It is proto-posthumanism, but it wil evolve from there and do so much faster than you think.

    Photons are the most aboundant source of energy right now that can be harnessed reliably, until we figure out nifty tricks with zero-point energy.
    test
  11. Thank you for removing the anthropomorphism, but if you condense "How is it" it takes a simpiler form of "Why" :D But I know you are asking for the logical chain.

    Humanity has proven its ability to survive in a wide variety of situations for some time now. The changes were as monumental as a global ice age, or as species-dependant as social networks advanced and became remarkably unpredictable as technology becomes more and more understood.

    I have a feeling that evolution will one trait over another in order for our next stage of survival. That trait will be socially oriented. Evolution (with government intervention in progress right this very second) will favor methods that allow 6 billion and growing people to exist on an isolated rock without having to kill themselves.

    The unfortuante part, is that as the infrastructure will not only become tighter, the dependancies of that infrastructure will narrow as scarcity becomes the driving force of all future social change. This is a dire situation that has currently manifested ine form known as "CLIMATE CHANGE" but it can also take mroe subtle forms such as extremism. You don't even know what kind of viruses Russia and us have made in the Cold War. You don't even want to know. It would make AIDS look like the common cold. A couple of nukes in the atmophere would burn the layers apart and if properly sequenced, anyone that doesn't survive the initial scorch and the fallout will have to live on a planet that doesn't even have a protective layering of atmosphere. When Europe modernized from a feudal society to a industrial society, the world was flipped on its head. The point is, there is a higher chance of things going really bad before they can get any better.

    As adaptable as we are, I do not think we will find a way to co-exist. Again, I trust our sex drive more than our talk. While evolution has not prepared us for this challenge ahead of us, a challenge that only we can solve, this makes us no longer reliant of what tools evolution has given us and is forcing us to create our own solutions.

    One of those solutions is to use posthuman technology to sedate us. It's not that far off from waht the world is doing to Western cultures now. I believe the Roman phrase for it was: Bread and circus. You may call me paranoid, but again, take a look around you. How many people do you know that are on behavoir modifier drugs? What's to modify? Why modify it at all? It's worked this long, right? That is the governments solution to the problem I have posed above: Soma.

    Big Brother came and went and WE hold the cameras! And we got some free porn out of it. Awesome.

    But Brave New World hasn't happened yet. But it is starting to. We will eventually have to give up some really important aspects of our genome if we wish to survive on an isolated planet. But it won't be cut by natural selection. It will be market induced. It will be medical intervention. It will be by demonizing one genetic trait over another. It will be fashion. It will be fad. It will be political and religious expression. Same game as always, just different tools and lexicon. But this time, we are doing more than changing minds.. we are changing the species. Physically. Just to survive.

    I wish to maintain the core human because it's transduction abilities are unique to the universe and if nothing more, then for sheer novelty reasosn :D
    test
  12. Yahunyahti

    Yahunyahti New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2007
    Messages:
    6,016

    None of your fantasies will come to pass.

    Just thought you should know. I've finally found the bridge that I've been looking for between science and religion. Say goodbye to posthumanism.
    test
  13. Yeah, economics tend to disagree with blanket statements like that.
    test
  14. McGirth

    McGirth New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2001
    Messages:
    4,883
    hah your talking about cell phone cameras aren't you? (and also security cams)
    These things have literally changed the world.

    I could see a brave new world scenario happening beginning with the introduction of an external birthing chamber. This will be the fad that will basically alter human nature (the way birth control to a large degree has). Basically, couples/single women (or men even) would want ot buy these things to breed their babies in. Their would be a huge demand for such devices since it would remove both the pain and inconveniance of child birth (i.e. lost wages for several months). Soon it would become the norm, and child birth, which has been one of the primary necessary constraints of human societies upon which laws have been built for millenia would go out the window. After this the definition of "mother" and "father" would probably change over time.

    from this i could see more temporary shifts/imbalances in human psychology/relations till we finally arrive at a brave new world scenario.

    of course this is all science fiction. Which way we go depends on what sorts of technologies can actually be develop AND will actually become fads.
    test
  15. McGirth

    McGirth New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2001
    Messages:
    4,883
    One huge problem with these ideas on posthumanism is that by altering human nature, since we don't really know everything about how society and progress is constructed, its very likely that we are to destroy one of the key pillars neccesary for continued progress.
    Its very possible that by changing the human condition we literally remove the ability for progress itself, in effect in effect limiting our maximal level of progress (i.e. the end of science)

    For example, what would happen if man's mind was transfered into a machine? Both Plato and Freud agreed that the sexual drive is an incredibly useful driving human motivation to create/industry. Plato even goes so far as to say that it is neccesary for man to peer into "the real/truth" (i.e. to create correct theories about reality).
    test
  16. menaz

    menaz Avant Garde

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2004
    Messages:
    16,807
    test
  17. d-rell

    d-rell New Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2004
    Messages:
    923
    Do you even understand the basic concepts in economics? I mean really, you are trying to reconcile science fiction with reality and truth and ignore the obvious discrepancies. You seem to be talking about human genetic engineering as though its reasonable to believe that with the globalization of capitalism it's feasible for posthumanist techonology to impact the masses. Do you expect the government to finance these special programs? Or maybe the United Nations foundation? We won't have the material resources or the human resources (trained experts) to apply these posthumanistic ideas. Besides there are carefully monitored, regulatory, systematic procedures in place, designed to limit the power of AI and its programmers. In short, global governance is not going to relinquish its authority and control to any technological movement that may yeild a greater social equality.
    test
  18. You dont' have one fucking ounce of knowledge on how technology evolves, do you?

    Yeah, just like global authorities of the old monarchs didnt' hand over power to industrial oligarchs? Oh wait.. they did.

    Do not talk to me until you read Technology's Nest.
    test
  19. d-rell

    d-rell New Member

    Joined:
    May 21, 2004
    Messages:
    923

    I'm pretty sure I did mention CAPITALISM. Capitalism and Old Monarchs don't exactly mix. Would you like me to explain the profound but simple difference?

    You're one of those Gene Roddenberry (better) idealist...

    I won't knock ya hustle, keep publishing your science fiction, just know that thats the exact section where Barnes & Nobles is going to stock it
    test
  20. d-rell

    You have been stalking me forever with your insecure, black nationalist bullshit.

    -Go to Africa already and fight the good fight.

    -Get some AIDS or get shot up in a tribal conflict.

    -Blame a white guy.

    -Rinse and repeat for the next 200 years until some fucking sense gets knocked into your progeny.

    Alright?

    In the meantime, Postuhmanism doesn't need to be explained to peons like you. There are thousands upon thousands upon thousands upon thousands upon thousands of souces you would have to disprove, not just mine.

    You can start with these guys: http://www.singinst.org/

    Then, when they are done trashing your poorly-educated ass, you can move on to these guys: http://www.yudkowsky.net/bayes/bayes.html

    And when that goes over your head (because you will be too busy obsessing over semantics like the good little farmhand you were destined to be) you can take a crack at these guys: http://researchweb.watson.ibm.com/journal/sj41-3.html

    Do not reply to me.

    DO

    NOT

    REPLY

    TO

    THIS

    This is a world effort, biger than you. Bigger than black people. Bigger than me. (Take note on the order there, you disposable peasent) Do not sit here and disagree with me as if I am the final authority on this topic. I have given you the sources, you will NOT go to them. You will NOT read them. You will NOT comprehend it. You will NOT read a fucking word I have typed.

    You WILL scan through this post, look for key words, and reply based on that.

    You WILL click on the QUOTE button and break this down pixel by useless pixel in the hopes that your coffeeshop revolutionary ass can come off as witty to impress a bunch of MEN on a fucking sausagefest of a webpage that is RapMusic.com.

    It will take you about 17 years to get to the level of comprehension on this topic that I am at. If that.

    Do

    Not

    Reply

    Talk to the masters on the topic, not me, you disgruntled NOI reject.
    test
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)