Rap Tututorial

Discussion in 'Hip-Hop Central' started by makaveli21, Feb 28, 2011.

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  1. reggie_jax

    reggie_jax rapper noyd

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    what is chaotic, undisciplined skill? never heard of such a thing.

    the rap verse you posted was average.

    "but it has 10x more rhymes than the raven!"

    you see the problem here is that poets, such as poe, don't rely on rhymes as a strict means of boasting their skill. typically if a poet were to come out with a piece of work which was basically just a loosely organized array of nonsensical boasting about how well they could rhyme words, they wouldn't get very far.

    rappers rhyme excessively because it happens to sound good over a beat, not because the rhyme itself is a yardstick of literary value. in other words, rhymes are used in poetry to make the piece sound good, but they aren't the core focus of the piece. in rap, rhymes take more of a central role since it's musical in nature and how a verse sounds is more important than what a verse means.

    in poetry, rhymes aren't even necessary at all. for example:

    you could say rap lyrics are a form of poetry which focuses more on rhymes and other aesthetic values than actual content, but then you'd always have exceptions to that as well. for instance:

    verses like the one above have more of a cohesive message one could say that it is centered around the message rather than the rhyme pattern, yet the rhyme pattern is still there because hip hop is largely dependent on that structure.

    in my eyes, that's probably the best verse any rapper has ever spit. yet if it were released in its written form as a poem, i don't think it would ever gain as much acclaim as it did as a rap verse. the reasons for this are plentiful, the core theme being that rap and poetry, despite the similarities, are not directly comparable in terms of measuring quality. the verse would be too scattered and wordy to make a good poem. poetry is simplified, emotional text. mos could reword and simplify the verse and THEN it would be a good poem.

    i think this is sort of the definitive argument against the claim that rap isn't music but is actually poetry instead. even the poetic elements in rap are a product of the music, and are loosely restricted by its rules. a better case would be that rap is a form of music with more literary and linguistic emphasis than usual.
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  2. Grayson

    Grayson New Member

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    So, are you saying that rap is incomparable with traditional poetry?
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  3. reggie_jax

    reggie_jax rapper noyd

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    not that you can't compare the two art forms at all, there are similarities

    but you can't directly compare the quality between the two

    you can't say rap is 'more complex' poetry because you are using a simplified idea of complexity (based on rhyme schemes, etc) which gives an inherent edge to even the most mediocre rap music while the classic poetry you are defaming was originally written with a different purpose in mind.

    i'm sure poe could've very easily rhymed more words than he did in 'the raven.' i don't think that was the point, so the thought likely never even crossed his mind. at the same time poetry contains other nuanced forms of complexity through imagery, emotional depth, etc. one of the hardest things about writing poetry is condensing complex thoughts and emotions into a simple yet coherent format without losing too much of the complexity that the original thought inspired.
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  4. Grayson

    Grayson New Member

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    Well, I was talking about rhyme scheme and meter (flow), because complex content (imagery, depth) is so debatable that I find it irrelevant. So, do you think Rap's affinity for multiple structures is creativity or chaos?
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  5. makaveli21

    makaveli21 king of the world

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    well in poetry u are allowed use to any rhyme style because poetry has no real limits in rap usally u have to have multi syllable rhyming in the rhyme scheme or it is considered wack but with poetry u can have a complex rhyme scheme without having any multi's in it so basically poetry is more creatitive then rap.
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  6. Freebass

    Freebass NAH NUDDAH

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    dude talkin bout restrictions in comparisons..........flow is not relavent to poetry
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  7. Freebass

    Freebass NAH NUDDAH

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    who says non multi is wack?..........you can have complex for both
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  8. makaveli21

    makaveli21 king of the world

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    alot of people say that no u can't poetry is more complex then rap.
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  9. Apachee

    Apachee New Member

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    OP is getting his info from the book "How to Rap: The Art and Science of the Hip-Hop MC" by Paul Edwards btw.

    Just in case anyone was curious.
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  10. makaveli21

    makaveli21 king of the world

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    no it's not just the part about beats and bars was from that book actually.
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  11. reggie_jax

    reggie_jax rapper noyd

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    creativity... how would multiple structures be chaos?

    and being debatable is inherent in pretty much all art. flow and rhyme scheme seem easier to pinpoint for you but by no means are these objective criteria for lyrical merit like some people like to pretend. i'd love to see someone who argues for objectivity in lyrical interpretation to break down mathematically how to prove one verse is more complex or more impressive than another. it's all debatable at the end of the day.. if it weren't then it wouldn't be very interesting
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  12. Grayson

    Grayson New Member

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    I used 'chaotic' for lack of a better word. What I'm trying to described is inconsistency.

    Well, you can objectively cite a rhyme scheme that's more complex than another.

    "Ha, and you ain't even have to ask twice
    You can have my heart or we can share it like the last slice
    Always felt you was so accustomed to the fast life
    Have a nigga thinking that he met you in the past life."

    Vs.

    "I keep seeing a repeating...Scene in my dreams
    I'm weeping peacefully, in a green pasture of sheep
    Who breathe deeply, relaxed on the grass asleep when
    I see these, factions of masked men with axes creepin."

    We can debate which is 'better' but it's really inarguable in regards to which is more complex in rhyme style.
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  13. reggie_jax

    reggie_jax rapper noyd

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    alright... so how do you quantify one as more complex than the other?
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  14. Grayson

    Grayson New Member

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    The combination of multi-syllabic, internal, and assonant form. It shows a more fluid, commanding usage of the English language than the former. Before you start, posting something along the lines of "who says it does?" isn't a valid argument; that would be a troll response lol.

    Also, this is where my initial post ITT came from. As Rap, you can compare those two, because it's the same style, same criteria, some style (for the most part). But, with traditional poetry, it seems to be so different, that it's complexity just can't be compared.
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  15. reggie_jax

    reggie_jax rapper noyd

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    i'm simply rejecting the idea that verses can be objectively compared until i'm provided with some objective means for comparing the complexity of any two verses. of course you can make common sense arguments for why a verse with tons of 'multis' 'internal rhymes' and whatever else you deem relevant as 'more complex' than a verse that lacks these qualities.. but that's not objectivity.

    it's still simply your opinion until you set a means for objectively judging that anyone can replicate on their own and get identical results. what you might not take into consideration is that some scenarios might be a bit harder to calculate than others.. it might be easy to compare an 'obviously complex' verse with an 'obviously simple' one.. but some verses might have different proportions of off setting qualities.. they might be 'more complex' in one aspect while 'less complex' in another.

    a simple example using your own criteria is maybe one verse has a more impressive display of multi syllable rhymes while the other has a more varied internal structure. there is no mathematical means for quantifying which of these two criteria are of a higher significance to the 'complexity' of a given verse because the entire matter is subjective.
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  16. Grayson

    Grayson New Member

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    I know there are different forms of complexity, that's why I had to, as you said, choose a verse that is obviously simple and one that's obviously complex, in order to show that complexity can be cited as an objective (though inconsequential) quality.
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  17. reggie_jax

    reggie_jax rapper noyd

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    but its not objective just because it seems obvious. it's only objective when you have an impartial way of testing it.
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  18. Grayson

    Grayson New Member

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    If you can give a valid, thorough argument for why Drake's rhyme scheme is more complex than DZK's, then do so. I honestly don't think anyone would, when presented with them, because DZK's are obviously more complex, as they contain more techniques, and are more extensive in their use than Drake's
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  19. Mrjdm998

    Mrjdm998 New Member

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    Find me a poem with multis. A guy who says Vinnie Paz is the best underground rapper can't talk like he knows shit about rap.
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  20. Grayson

    Grayson New Member

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    The Bridge of Sights by Thomas Hood, in the 1800s.

    One more Unfortunate,
    Weary of breath,
    Rashly importunate,
    Gone to her death!

    Take her up tenderly,
    Lift her with care;
    Fashion'd so slenderly
    Young, and so fair!

    Look at her garments
    Clinging like cerements;
    Whilst the wave constantly
    Drips from her clothing;
    Take her up instantly,
    Loving, not loathing.

    Touch her not scornfully;
    Think of her mournfully,
    Gently and humanly;
    Not of the stains of her,
    All that remains of her
    Now is pure womanly.

    Make no deep scrutiny
    Into her mutiny
    Rash and undutiful:
    Past all dishonour,
    Death has left on her
    Only the beautiful.

    Still, for all slips of hers,
    One of Eve's family
    Wipe those poor lips of hers
    Oozing so clammily.

    Loop up her tresses
    Escaped from the comb,
    Her fair auburn tresses;
    Whilst wonderment guesses
    Where was her home?

    Who was her father?
    Who was her mother?
    Had she a sister?
    Had she a brother?
    Or was there a dearer one
    Still, and a nearer one
    Yet, than all other?

    Alas! for the rarity
    Of Christian charity
    Under the sun!
    O, it was pitiful!
    Near a whole city full,
    Home she had none.

    Sisterly, brotherly,
    Fatherly, motherly
    Feelings had changed:
    Love, by harsh evidence,
    Thrown from its eminence;
    Even God's providence
    Seeming estranged.

    Where the lamps quiver
    So far in the river,
    With many a light
    From window and casement,
    From garret to basement,
    She stood, with amazement,
    Houseless by night.

    The bleak wind of March
    Made her tremble and shiver;
    But not the dark arch,
    Or the black flowing river:
    Mad from life's history,
    Glad to death's mystery,
    Swift to be hurl'd—
    Anywhere, anywhere
    Out of the world!

    In she plunged boldly
    No matter how coldly
    The rough river ran—
    Over the brink of it,
    Picture it—think of it,
    Dissolute Man!
    Lave in it, drink of it,
    Then, if you can!

    Take her up tenderly,
    Lift her with care;
    Fashion'd so slenderly,
    Young, and so fair!

    Ere her limbs frigidly
    Stiffen too rigidly,
    Decently, kindly,
    Smooth and compose them;
    And her eyes, close them,
    Staring so blindly!

    Dreadfully staring
    Thro' muddy impurity,
    As when with the daring
    Last look of despairing
    Fix'd on futurity.

    Perishing gloomily,
    Spurr'd by contumely,
    Cold inhumanity,
    Burning insanity,
    Into her rest.—
    Cross her hands humbly
    As if praying numbly,
    Over her breast!

    Owning her weakness,
    Her evil behaviour,
    And leaving, with meekness,
    Her sins to her Saviour!



    Rap didn't invent multisyllable rhymes...They existed in poetry long before it came along.
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