question for the BJJ players

Discussion in 'MMA, Boxing & Other Combat Sports' started by Macabre, Dec 3, 2008.

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  1. Macabre

    Macabre via Fatality

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    what kinda injuries have you had over the years caused from grappling?

    just curious.
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  2. Ben Official

    Ben Official Active Member

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    personally, just sprained fingers, bruises, tons of mat burn, had to get my ears drained once from cauliflower, should have got them drained twice, when i first started i was sore all the time from working muscles you don't normally work, a couple times from not tapping fast enough i had sore joints for a bit but nothing too major

    however there are lots of injuries. my friend tore his meniscus, actually i know 2 people that tore their meniscus and had to get surgery and were out for over 6 months. my friend dislocated his shoulder not from not tapping but from a weird movement he did. those things arent too rare but thats all i can think of at the moment
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  3. ANDtheMC

    ANDtheMC New Member

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    Bruises, mat burn, sore shoulder, arms, elbow, forarms, neck... Felt like a sprained my ankle from heel hooks a few times... Regular shit...
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  4. I Only Took JJ For 2 years and I Broke 3 Fingers, Broke My Right Wrist, Dislocated My Left Shoulder.. Couldnt Tell You How Many Sprained Fingers I had.. Most Of The Breaks I had were from me falling @ Odd Angles..

    Theres Probably Something I Missed, I Just Cant Recall..
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  5. Ben Official

    Ben Official Active Member

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    yeah, learning how to fall.

    hehehe jkjk
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  6. lmao.. Thats why I stopped JJ and Started Boxing..
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  7. ANDtheMC

    ANDtheMC New Member

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    It's weird. Taking the fall came natural for me. A lotta times, the double leg leads right into guillotines in the guard so I don't even sprawl. I just pull guard when someone goes for the double. I like goin' to the ground...
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  8. Ben Official

    Ben Official Active Member

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    yeah, thats whats risky about double legs. for me its single legs all day.
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  9. ANDtheMC

    ANDtheMC New Member

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    Yeah, but you can't always get the single leg...
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  10. Ben Official

    Ben Official Active Member

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    true, but its what i go for the most and it has a pretty good success rate. if not that then ill go for the ankle pick or shoot in to high crotch and crack down. i'll rarely finish in a double, 85% of the time you go for a double you just end up in their guard anyway.
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  11. ANDtheMC

    ANDtheMC New Member

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    Well, if you're training for just straight up jujitsu then that's not good but if you're training to actually use it in MMA's situations, being in someone's guard isn't bad. I always think about the situations as if it were in a real fight... Always factor in the concept of striking even if it's just rolling...

    For me, I like the double leg but sweeps from the clench are effective as well. Realistically speaking, a lotta the judo throws aren't effective as seen in UFC... But I do like a lotta the sweeps from the clench...
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  12. Ben Official

    Ben Official Active Member

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    yeah idk. i do judo and honnestly when it comes competition time i rarely use it. instead i rely on wrestling take downs. in a street fight i would also rarely use judo. if your a black belt in judo its different but im not so i dont feel as comfortable. and idk about the not caring about ending up in their guard, yeah for mma thats not that terrible, but definitely not preferable. anyone would rather establish a better position than chill in their guard and try to finish from there. from a competition aspect it sucks getting the 2 points then working to pass. i definitely prefer other take downs than double legs unless the guy doesnt know what hes doing (street fights for example)
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  13. ANDtheMC

    ANDtheMC New Member

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    The reason double legs are effective is because you can often turn them into slams (depending on weight and strength)... And I disagree... If you know what you're doing on top AS FAR AS MMA, it's hard to get submitted being the person holding you in the guard has to also defend/block. Much more to worry about than in straight jujitsu competitions when you just attack...attack...attack (submissions from the guard obviously)... Unless they know how to use the rubber guard effectively, I'm not worried..

    Hence, in MMA you get points for take downs even when you end up in the guard and it's considered the advanced position (unless you're fighting top knotch jujitsu fighters - Maia, Nog, Mir, Palhares, etc.) In MMA, you can win rounds being in someone's guard for an entire round.... If you're on your back and have someone in your guard, you most likely lost the round barring a submission...
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  14. Ben Official

    Ben Official Active Member

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    First of all I wasn't talking strictly MMA. Second, if you're assuming you can Matt Hughes slam people from a double leg consistently, thats rare. As you said previously, you're at high risk of getting guillotined. If its me its singles allll day. The only time I'd intentionally shoot for a double is when I'm fighting someone who is of far less skill. Also, you're talking about winning rounds by sitting in someones guard via points. I'm talking about efficiently finishing the opponent, not winning on points. Finding a guy who would rather be in his opponents guard than be in side control is rare. You're also assuming the guy your fighting doesn't have submissions from the guard. You don't need to be a top notch fighter to finish someone in your guard, by any means. Also, getting back to the points aspect... you can easily stall the round in bjj tournaments by sitting in someones guard, thats not my point. I'm not talking about winning on points, I'm talking about whats most effective to finish your opponent. Also, the guy on top is not in dominant position in MMA. Unless the guy is effectively landing damaging shots the guy in the guard will win the round, assuming he's throwing shots as well.

    Put it this way. What would you rather do? Take someone down and end up in cross body or take someone down and end up in their guard? Doubles are too risky. Yeah, cool, if your Matt Hughes you can get the slam, if you're not, your risking the guillotine, your just ending up in their guard. You look at it from an objective point of view, Singles are wayyyy more efficient and less risky.

    Advantages of a single leg:
    -You don't risk getting guillotined.
    -You don't risk ending up in their guard. Instead you establish an unquestionably better position.


    Disadvantages:
    -There's less possibility of getting a big slam than a double leg.


    Double leg advantages:
    -You can occasionally pull off a big slam assuming you have the strength and your opponent lacks the TKD.

    Disadvantages:
    -Big risk of guillotine
    -End up in their guard.

    Very few people would prefer to end up in their opponents guard than in side control. Objectively, the risk-reward ratio is far better for single legs.

    Again, the only time I'm going for the slam is in a street fight where the guy has no grappling experience. Its so easy to sprawl when someone shoots in intentionally looking for a double, its also so easy to get guillotined. Put it this way, you see far many more guillotines than big slams when people shoot for the double leg.
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  15. ANDtheMC

    ANDtheMC New Member

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    Again, I said depending on weight and strength. If there is a heavy weight/strength advantage, you can do it whenever you practically want if you get the double...

    I know... But if somebody has good balance, you can avoid the single a lot easier than you can avoid the double... That was my only point...

    Fuck finishing or whatnot... I'm talking about winning in general. And even finishing, a lot of people in the guard open their guard to go for sweeps and get mount/side control. Hence, it's not impossible to get out of guard. Not only that, there are techniques to break the guard. As far as being able to trade strikes, being on top in the guard is a MUCH more effective position...

    That's a given...

    And again, we're not talking JUST jujitsu. Again, even fighters with submissions in MMA struggle sometimes. MMA jujitsu is COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from just jujitsu competitions. You should now this. Striking changes EVERYTHING. If it was just about jujitsu, being in someone's guard can be dangerous. How many black belt jujitsu fighters have you seen go into the UFC and have someone in their guard and just get pounded on? Again, HUGE DIFFERENCE WITH STRIKING...

    I'm sorry, but you're wrong here. The guy on top has a much better chance of landing those "effective damaging shots" so he is considered the dominant position. It's much MUCH harder to land damaging blows from the bottom. Again, if in the beginning of a fight in the UFC, a du' took down another one and one guy pulled guard and the next guy was in the guard and they didn't do anything and stood at a stalemate... du' on top would win the round... MMA scoring and jujitsu scoring are different... IN STRAIGHT JUJITSU, guard is dominant position. IN MMA, being on top is the dominant position because it fairs better for striking...

    Obviously, the cross body/side control is better. That is an obvious... But fact of the matter is, it's much harder to avoid double legs than a single leg. A single leg, I've seen people hop around and avoid the takedown on numerous occasions and then pull the leg out... And other times, I've seen people just pull the leg out off the bat, which puts you in a vulnerable position... Why do you think in MMA, we see a LOT more double legs?

    That's a given...

    Add the difficulty of avoiding it is a lot easier...


    Again, ending up in the guard doesn't scare A LOT of fighters in MMA. It ends with you being on the top and the ability to do some ground 'n pound...

    Yes, but the percentages say the double has a higher chance of being successful...

    And that's if you just shoot off the bat... When you shoot in a FIGHT, you have to set it up with strikes...

    And if you put it like that: I've seen far more double legs work effectively than single legs IN MMA...
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  16. ANDtheMC

    ANDtheMC New Member

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    ^^^ Why do you think the rubber guard was invented? Because too many fighters get beat the fuck up in the guard. It's still VERY doable to posture up while in the guard and land heavy blows...

    ONLY WAY I'M INTIMIDATED BY THE GUARD IS IF THE FIGHTER EFFECTIVELY KNOWS HOW TO USE THE RUBBER GUARD....
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  17. Ben Official

    Ben Official Active Member

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    wait a sec. first of all.. did you just say being on top in someone elses guard is much more effective than being on top in cross body? most would say no. a few prefer guard for some reason, but this stuff really comes down to who the fighter is... but most would definitely prefer side control cmon now. i think we need to drop this. obviously you personally prefer double legs. has it worked for you in competitions and fights? of course there are techniques to break the guard. thats not my point. my point is what position would most people rather be in after they take their opponent down? the answer is side control. you really can't argue that. there are some people who like to stay in their guard and gnp. theres also people who like to stay in half guard and do the same thing. thats not the majority. also, when i started arguing i was talking about bjj tournaments, because this was a bjj thread.

    also, you're assuming wayyy too much with every point you make (assuming they are strong, assuming the person doesnt have good take down defense, assuming the person doesn't have good bjj, assuming the person has good balance when going for a single leg)

    again, have double legs worked for you in competition? have they worked in fights? if so cool, do you. for me, and most others i have discussed this with (i've discussed this at length several times with other people i train with) we all prefer single legs.

    well, feel free to go check. but the fact is if neither throw strikes, or one isn't clearly dominating the other, the advantage and the points go to the guy who has his opponent in his guard in mma. in bjj neither gets points. and for the record its not impossible to break a guys posture and keep him down unless you have rubber guard. i rarely use rubber guard, i have no problem breaking peoples posture and keeping them where i want them without using it. same with everyone else on my team.

    really? yeah i've seen people hop around too... people with great take down defense. how often have you seen someone get sprawled on or guillotined when they shoot for the double? WAY more.

    when you shoot for a single leg, you dont have to finish a certain way, theres so many ways you can finish when you have their leg. there are people with great flexibility that are better at avoiding it a lot of times, thats not the point lol. theres people that can avoid everything man.

    if the only way your intimitaded in the guard is if they use rubber guard, its pretty clear you havent faced any good bjj guys.

    where do you train? under who? for how long? does everyone at your academy prefer the double leg?
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  18. Ben Official

    Ben Official Active Member

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    and let me make this clear. when i shoot in, i bate them for the single, but i shoot in and take what they give me. if you shoot in jUST going for a double leg you havent been wrestling very long. i'm not sure if thats what you meant or not.

    but i shoot in and i take what they give, i circle so they step out with the foot i want, then i shoot in, and i take whats there. i'm pretty small and fast so i can usually end up with the single, but if they are an idiot and stay squared i might go for the double (usually the single though), if they bring the other foot forward ill go high crotch, i dont only go for the single. its whatever they give me but i usually bate them into the single.

    any time i end up going for the double its after i shoot in and get high crotch. ill turn the corner immediately and take the double, ill almost never shoot right in and go for the double. if you do that in a bjj tournament and your above a whilebelt and the guy knows anything about judo, he'll throw you over his back, or you'll have to work yourself out of a guillotine or work to break their guard. for bjj tournaments, double leg? no way jose
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  19. Ben Official

    Ben Official Active Member

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    btw im not trying to sound arrogant, i read over what i wrote and it kind of comes off that way. lol im pretty faded but if you find doubles work better for you, thats cool. do you. where i train its agreed upon but maybe where your at they think different
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  20. ANDtheMC

    ANDtheMC New Member

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    No, I said being on top when in the guard is more effective than being on the bottom in the guard FOR MMA. And I know it's a BJJ but BJJ is part of MMA. And I think single legs are effective and of course, side control is WAY more effective than being in someone's guard. What I said was the chances of effectively not getting taken down is higher on the singles...

    And I am not assuming. You judge based on how confident you are in yourself. If you know what you are doing and mixing strikes in, it is EXTREMELY difficult to get tapped out FROM THE GUARD. You really have to fuck up and/or the guy pulling guard has to be THAT GOOD. ESPECIALLY WHEN STRIKING IS INVOLVED. I'm not assuming anything. Fact of the matter is, A LOT OF WORLD CLASS JUJITSU GUYS have come into MMA and pulled guard to get pounded out. This is a fact. Look at the history.

    And I have nothing against the single leg. Again, I just attack based on what I know people could be capable of. I know when someone goes after single legs on me, I am good at hopping around and avoiding and getting my leg out. When someone goes after the double leg, and catch my legs, it usually means I'm going down (which usually ends up in my guard with a guillotine tho' - my natural reaction)...

    And false. The winner of the round will be the person in guard. They also did get the takedown. And again, if you watch MMA, think about how many times fighters pull guard and lose rounds. WAYYYY MORE OFTEN than vice versa...

    And I didn't say it's impossible but it's even more possible to posture up 'n drop strikes/elbows (which don't even require you to posture up)...

    Because people shoot for doubles A LOT more than they go for singles. So of course we're going to see more of it. I've seen people pull their leg out PLENTY of times when someone went after the single leg...

    I know... George St. Pierre....

    I have... I just don't find it that hard to avoid submissions once in the guard and able to drop blows... I'm not pro/world class or anything. Don't get me wrong. I do get submitted. But usually it's on leg locks more than from the guard. I'm a lot worse at submission defense when it comes to the legs. I don't understand why. I wanna get A LOT better tho'...

    But simple question: Why was the rubber guard invented? Is it not because so many jujitsu practitioners came into MMA and got pounded on from the regular guard?

    I didn't train under an academy. I trained under a Cambodian fighter we call Huot who's been fighting since he was a little kid. No belts/no nothing. He's nasty at muay thai and jujitsu. And no, not everyone prefers double legs... I don't have any preference. I just think realistically they're more effective in actually getting the takedown...
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