Poetry is Dead

Discussion in 'Writer's Block' started by predicate, Jun 21, 2004.

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  1. Clarksvegas_Dan

    Clarksvegas_Dan Registered Voter

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    Dan, what the fuck do you want me to say? You want me to address every single one of those poets in essay format? Give you my opinion on the fundamental difference between poetry and music? Not that I'm afraid of answering, but I really don't see the pertinence of it, and I've answered so many quibbles for one day that I'll explode if I answer any more.

    Honestly, I wanted you to admit that you hate Rapmusic, and therefore came here only to squash the self-esteem of the young poets who were not as fortunate as yourself. I attended one of the worst schools in America. Seriously. Lowest test scores in all of Tennessee. And I assume that you know where Tennessee ranks nationally. Keats, Tennyson, Blah, Blah, Blah. I didn't hear of those poets until college. Hell, I didn't hear of poetry at all in my school. I heard of Rap though. And I'll choose Tupac over Elliot any day, because I can relate to it. Of course, I can relate to Shakespeare. But most of the poets you've named can eat my shit as far as I'm concerned. You certainly haven't done a good job convincing me that they have anything to offer me. I think that the character of the person writing the poems is more important than how technically appealing the poem is.

    By the way, I'm not training to be a poet. So telling me that my poetry sucks, is like telling someone who sings to the radio in their car that their singing sucks. Who gives a fuck? Songs were meant to be sung and poems were meant to be written. Whether they live up to your standards really doesn't matter.

    So unless you want to come teach Poetry in my High School, don't complain that the poetry stinks. Because you're not doing anything but complaining. Teach it if you want it to be, and don't act surprised if your students hate you.
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  2. Xero Satsujin

    Xero Satsujin OnLy gOd kNoWs oR Goes

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    In every arguement that you stated towards every person that you stated it towards, you proved my point. Every one of them...You remind me of a preacher, and not a very good one either, probably catholic, ha ha...
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  3. Xero Satsujin

    Xero Satsujin OnLy gOd kNoWs oR Goes

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    BTW, I am a teacher, he would really suck at his Job, lol...He couldn't convince the dead to lay still...
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  4. Anaphora

    Anaphora was here

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    They Feed They Lion I believe you're refering too... which is an odd little poem.

    The reason people recite the 'classics' is because they are from the 'golden age' of literature... that's why people still read Cotton Mather, not because its relative, but because its a 'classic'...

    Yes, Shakespeare was a poor, illiterate actor, no more than a pen name for Sir Francis Bacon... I'm sure you're familiar with his work, or his name at least... though obviously there is no absolute proof bacon wrote as shakespeare, there are many many things that point to it... and seeing as none of the original shakespearian manuscripts have ever been found, its impossible to say definitely one way or another... but there's many books on that subject.

    I do agree that people should understand how meter works... the whole idea of 'know the rules before you break them' is widely taught, because nowadays, not a whole lot of people abide by all the rules, because breaking them well, makes for a much more interesting poem/novel/play/film etc etc etc.

    Formalism are not my cup of tea... though I'll write an occasional pantoum or sonnet, I prefer free verse, and even then either prosy, natural language, or very very terse, like Kay Ryan.

    As for mentioning the romantics... heh, I was just kind of making a joke about so many people who spend so much of their lives learning about poetry, when the people they're learning about, the 'greats' were not only finished writing their greatest pieces, but also living. Hermann Hesse has a book on the same subject, I forget the exact topic, the duality of the studious and the boisterous... narcisis and something... I forget exactly.
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  5. No I didn't forget. I'm Looking to share and experience other peoples poetry here. My defence of subjectivity is not thrown out the window due to you overlooking all possibilities of why I indeed I post.

    It would seem Monks who burnt their work would be concerned about writing something that was not ultimately for the spirit world. Just because I share on here and do not burn my poetry immediatley after writing it, or lock my thoughts deep in a diary away from the world. It does not mean that I cannot use subjectivity as a defence against your attempts to make all the realm's poems mediocre and your favourite poets the best.

    Well thats nice of you, but maybe writing and reading together would be a better idea. Why stop? Why a YEar? this is ridiculous/

    A great reader does not always mean a great writer. But again that depends who is reading and who is writing.

    You say lets not quibble over matters of faith then follow up by stating that people aren't gifted? I beleive it can be both a combination of a gift and hard work. Some people have a flair for things. But this does not mean that I think there is an elite level of poetry one can reach. Why? Because we cannot agree on standards..It is true somethings take a while to master, but how can you master something that has many many masters? and out of all those masters, some beleieve they are not such the masters that others thought they were. We are not talking about mastering 1+1=2 which has a definate outcome. We are talking about opinions of what makes a poet good.

    that depends if your faults are with the content or the form.

    If you are talking about the content then I think you need to chill.

    Oh and I Do not need to take your advice.

    Thanks though.
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  6. predicate

    predicate New Member

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    Xero, you have a tendency to think that things explain themselves. The only thing you stated before was that I may suffer from Napoleon complex, and think that immortality lies only in the memory of others. Unless I misunderstood the meaning of a "Napoleon complex," (I'll admit, it's the first time I ever heard that term) my points are valid. Please be so kind as to showing me where I am mistaken, instead of snickering and saying "hahaha yerrrr wrong!"

    Anaphora, you still have problems making a point. I said that people memorize classic poetry and not contemporary poetry because the former is good, while the latter sucks. You go on to say that the former is classic. So, what? Are you suggesting that people memorize these poems out of simple homage to the past, our of duty, without actually enjoying the poems? That's a pretty bold statement to make, and I'm pretty sure it's an inaccurate one.

    I'm familiar with the Bacon theory, but, from the Shakespearean scholars I've met, and the essays I've read on the subject ages ago, it's false.

    I'm using Eliot as the quintessential poet, and, in his case, he knew all the rules, and modified them, rather than breaking them. He still used them, only not with the regularity of a set-pattern that a sonnet demands. Modifying the rules (which is the synthesis I have been advocating all along) is different from discarding them altogether. Granted?

    CV Dan, if you are more concerned with the character of the poet than his talent as a poet, then we are at loggerheads. You argue for raw content, I argue for formed content. Do I hate Rapmusic? No. It's not as good as it used to be in the early 90's, but I'm only saying that while keeping in mind my theory on the appeal of music (which I won't share here). I don't want to squash the hopes of those on this site. I want them to learn how to write poetry before they write it. But, you say that learning the mechanics isn't important, and I can't convince you otherwise, so let's put an end to that.

    I think I'm doing far more than only complaining. I'm telling people how to fix the problem. If people choose to listen or not is up to them. If people are content with their level of writing, then they will vehemently attack my comments, post poetry on this site, and have other people pat their back for them. But if people want to improve, are not content with their writing but want more out of it, I'm showing them the best way how. Like you said, you don't give a fuck about improving. I'm hoping that someone reading this does. At least grant me this much.

    Brit Boi, you are making your personal experiences/poetry open for objective criticism when showing it to a group of people. If you're uncomfortable with what they say, subjectivity is a great defence mechanism, as is denial. But the act of showing it to others in and of itself asks for objectivity. Sorry if you're unhappy with what I said about your poetry.

    Of course, a great reader does not inevitably make a great writer, but it sure does help. Why? Because then your vocabulary grows, you understand the nuances of your language - where it works and where it fails - which results in your ability to express yourself more accurately. The main problem I find in the poetry on this site is that people do not say what they mean, and use weak words for expression. "Nice," "place," "thing," etc are empty words. Do you see where this argument is going? Reading more leads to expanding your vocabulary, which in turn leads to expressing yourself better, which in turn results in better poetry. Come on, don't be stubborn, and see the truth in this.

    Better means of expressing yourself leads to better poetry. The reason I advocate the resurrection of form is because form is another tool you can use to effectively express yourself. The unity of a Miltonic/Wordsworthian sonnet, an out of place trochee in a field of iambs, stuff like this enhances your meaning.

    Does everyone see what I'm saying now? I've said nothing about your content (at least, I don't think I have). I am saying that your form/lackthereof does gross disservice to your content, and ruins the poem altogether. A weak vocabulary does the same - which doesn't mean that your poetry should overflow with latinate language, but that you should be able to find words that add meaning to your poem, rather than take away from it.

    "Reading is fundamental." "Read to achieve!" - you didn't think they were lying, did you?
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  7. allnakey

    allnakey Sex is no fun by yourself

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    People remember older poets cause that's what they study in school and in classes.

    That may mean nothing to you , for you have not taken anything out of this arguement and that is your fault I guess. You are open to arguement, but you won't admite good points people have made to prove your whole poetry is dead therory wrong.

    First off this isn't an arguement of what century the best poets came from this is a arguement that you started with the firm statement "poetry is dead." Now if there are still great poetry writers out there (which there are) how is poetry dead? Explain that? If this message board is on the internet and thosands of it like it, how is poetry dead? Explain to me that. Maybe the older forms of poerty are become less used, but it's called change and every art from changes.
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  8. Clarksvegas_Dan

    Clarksvegas_Dan Registered Voter

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    CV Dan, if you are more concerned with the character of the poet than his talent as a poet, then we are at loggerheads. You argue for raw content, I argue for formed content. Do I hate Rapmusic? No. It's not as good as it used to be in the early 90's, but I'm only saying that while keeping in mind my theory on the appeal of music (which I won't share here). I don't want to squash the hopes of those on this site. I want them to learn how to write poetry before they write it. But, you say that learning the mechanics isn't important, and I can't convince you otherwise, so let's put an end to that.

    I think I'm doing far more than only complaining. I'm telling people how to fix the problem. If people choose to listen or not is up to them. If people are content with their level of writing, then they will vehemently attack my comments, post poetry on this site, and have other people pat their back for them. But if people want to improve, are not content with their writing but want more out of it, I'm showing them the best way how. Like you said, you don't give a fuck about improving. I'm hoping that someone reading this does. At least grant me this much.

    Damn, you're as stubborn as me. I'm not arguing for raw content or against formed content. I'm just arguing that content is what matters more.

    It's not as good as it used to be in the early 90's. Agreed.

    I want them to learn how to write poetry before they write it. But, you say that learning the mechanics isn't important, and I can't convince you otherwise, so let's put an end to that.

    I never said the mechanics were'nt important, they are just less important. Like I said before, if your goal is to teach you are going about it in the wrong way. Try leading by example, show us that reading the classics does improve your writing by posting some of your work the realm.

    I think I'm doing far more than only complaining. I'm telling people how to fix the problem. If people choose to listen or not is up to them. If people are content with their level of writing, then they will vehemently attack my comments, post poetry on this site, and have other people pat their back for them.

    I don't understand how you can say it's anything more than a complaint. Content, well I'm not completely discontent. I know I'm not a great poet, but then again I never claimed to be. I will only attack your comments when your comments are attacks. About the pat on the back thing, well, I kindof agree. The replies rarely benefit my writing, but they keep me writing, and once I get a chance I will take my poems to someone who's opinion I respect and have them critique them. Then If i've decided that a poem is decent enough I might just enter a contest. I'm not trying to get published really. I'm just trying to pass the time.

    I'm showing them the best way how. Like you said, you don't give a fuck about improving. I'm hoping that someone reading this does. At least grant me this much.

    You claim it's the best way. I never said I don't give a f about improving. I said I don't give a f about your opinion. If someone reading this does decide to read the greats, I hope for their sake and for the sake of the people who have to put up with them that they don't turn in to snotty little brats. At least grant me this much. later.
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  9. lpoet

    lpoet POET

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    poetry is what you make it..not what others want it to be

    thats what makes it beautiful

    it doesnt matter if i'm the only one who likes my work b/c i do it for me....

    it is flat out ignorent to say that poetry is dead...poetry is alive..poetry is in u!
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  10. predicate

    predicate New Member

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    allnakay, I'll explain it to you easily. You suffer from reading-the-title-but-not-the-post syndrome. Never did I claim that people don't write poetry. I claimed that there are no more great poetry writers, and that poetry sucks. I said reading is fundamental for writing good poetry. Now I'll tell you that reading is fundamental for decent conversation. Try again.

    Let me break down your argument bit by bit. You claim that every art form changes. Tell me, then, what is change? For the sake of this argument, it is a progression, an evolution, from the past to the present. Tell me, then, how are you "changing" if you have nothing to change from? You completely disregard the past. That is not considered change, but starting from scratch. I have advocated all along that every poet should change from the past, that he should understand the past and then synthesize something out of it. You understand nothing about the past. You're not changing. You're starting from scratch.

    By all means, please change from the past, but understand that change involves an understanding of what you're changing from. Good?

    CV Dan, fine, you say that content matters more. But you missed my second-last paragraph: "I am saying that your form/lackthereof does gross disservice to your content, and ruins the poem altogether."

    And I have lead by example. I have given the examples of Keats and Pope and Eliot, the last two poets considered the greatest poets of their era. I have mentioned how other great poets - Wordsworth, Coleridge, Byron, Tennyson, Browning - were also exceptional readers of the classics. Their examples are far more edifying than anything I can post on this board.

    Now, you say that the way you'll improve is by having other people critique your work. Tell me, is that the only way to improve? I tell you, you can learn your mistakes by others telling you what they are, or you can learn your mistakes by yourself reading what they are. And, to tell you the truth, I think the latter is a far more authoritative source, and far more rewarding altogether.

    Dan, you think that by reading more people become snotty little brats? Is that the stigma behind reading? I'm really concerned about this comment of yours. Please explain.

    and lpoet, allow me to tell you that you're retarded. That is all.
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  11. allnakey

    allnakey Sex is no fun by yourself

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  12. allnakey

    allnakey Sex is no fun by yourself

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    And I guess you are right again poetry has not changed.

    What a fucking idiot, you only see what you wanna and it's sad. This thread should be claimed dead, cause your opinions are all extremely baises towards you opening arguement, and this is an arguement where no one will end up right. Im done now
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  13. predicate

    predicate New Member

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    Really now, stop trying to save face, and embrace the fact that you're a fucking retard. I guess you're going to quote me for mentioning that poetry is a rotting corpse, too? Did you take that literally?

    It was a metaphor used to get everyone's attention and start the conversation, and I afterwards explained that:

    And now you misunderstand what I meant by change. You really misunderstood it, awfully. Try it again, slowly, pronouncing the words as you read them. Please, try reading and thinking before you respond. It will make a world of a difference in this conversation, since you are evoking pity for your stupidity instead of a response for the discussion. Read it again, and come back after a while.

    Sorry.
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  14. allnakey

    allnakey Sex is no fun by yourself

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    lol... Im done argueing... but seriously let me go kill myself, Im dumb your smart, My opinions are all wrong, Im a failure in life.

    Jezzzzz let me go re evalaute my whole entire life, I can't read right and I just can't do anything write, I mean right. I'm a loser so why dont you kill me
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  15. predicate

    predicate New Member

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    Damn straight, biaaaaaaatch!

    *throwz up gang signs, and pours out a lil liqua for his dead poet homies*

    WHOOOOOOO'S YOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRR DAAAAADDDDDDYYYYYY?????

    Dan, I'm still interested in your comment about brats. Holla!
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  16. Clarksvegas_Dan

    Clarksvegas_Dan Registered Voter

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    I am starting to see CV Dan's point of view. I'm a nice guy, but I have to say that you are obsessed with this crap. I'm wondering if you've even read these poets. Just my thoughts.
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  17. Clarksvegas_Dan

    Clarksvegas_Dan Registered Voter

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    I'm simply saying that reading has turned you into a snotty little brat.lol
    If those who read what you've read become more like you then I will suggest that they not read it. Because I don't like you. And from the looks of the other posts in this thread, neither does anybody else. I guess those books can't teach you a whole lot about human interaction, social skills.

    Besides that, I read. I read alot. More than any of my immediate peers at least. I like reading poetry too. And Like I said maybe in another post, I'm not sure, I have read some of the poetry of your Deities. I wasn't impressed. Mainly because I didn't think they had much character. They weren't people that I would have enjoyed knowing. I'm glad they're dead. And I hope they're poetry dies soon.
    But that's your influence speaking. Thank you for making that belief concrete in my mind.

    I am saying that your form/lackthereof does gross disservice to your content, and ruins the poem altogether."

    Well, thank you for your input.

    And I have lead by example. I have given the examples of Keats and Pope and Eliot, the last two poets considered the greatest poets of their era. I have mentioned how other great poets - Wordsworth, Coleridge, Byron, Tennyson, Browning - were also exceptional readers of the classics. Their examples are far more edifying than anything I can post on this board.

    Okay, someone doesn't understand the principles of leadership or teaching. That is not leading by example. You do it. I agree their poems probably are better than any of your own, but I want to see you practice what you preach. So I can know that you aren't a hypocrite.

    Now, you say that the way you'll improve is by having other people critique your work. Tell me, is that the only way to improve? I tell you, you can learn your mistakes by others telling you what they are, or you can learn your mistakes by yourself reading what they are. And, to tell you the truth, I think the latter is a far more authoritative source, and far more rewarding altogether.

    Agreed. What I don't agree upon is who you think I should read. I wanted to consider your suggestions but you came across like a rapist who forces their love on somebody else. You love them, I don't. Drop it.

    Dan, you think that by reading more people become snotty little brats? Is that the stigma behind reading? I'm really concerned about this comment of yours. Please explain.

    and lpoet, allow me to tell you that you're retarded. That is all.

    I've already answered the first part, but let me reitterate, you are a snotty little brat, who just doesn't get it. Thank you for your concern.

    predicate, allow me to tell you that you're unwanted. That is all.
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  18. predicate

    predicate New Member

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    Sure, I'm an asshole, with poor social skills. That was blatantly apparent when I said that I care for the poetry and not for the poet. I guess my gang-sign throwing was the icing on the cake.

    Then again, I'm sure you can tell that this wasn't an attempt to make friends. If I wanted to do that, I'd head over to Poetry Realm and tell the people there how great and deeply felt their poetry is. Instead, I came here and told them how great their poetry isn't, and have offended any and every poetry writer as a result. So, sure, I'll accept the role as martyr if I can lift the veil from people's eyes, and have them strive for improving their expression, instead of wallowing in the quagmire of their complacency.

    So be it. My ideas have been fully and repeatedly expressed. Now it's just a matter of whether people accept the message, or deny it for its violent medium. I'll say no more in this thread.
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  19. allnakey

    allnakey Sex is no fun by yourself

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    I dont know if you offended all that many people, just a lot of them disagree with you heavily. As far as character, can't reallt judge a person by their posts, cause this is their idea on only one subject and the whole point of an arguement is to win, really no matter how big of an asshole it makes you.

    I still heavily disagree, but do I get offended when you say the poetry on this board sucks... NO, but feel that you should see the poets point of view on this board. This kind of poetry might not be your cup of tea... I understand a lot of what you are saying on form and stuff, but to a lot of people that is boring

    I already said im done with argueing so I wont continue and make and further comments that can provoke more argueing. I actaully thought this was a pretty fun post.
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  20. Clarksvegas_Dan

    Clarksvegas_Dan Registered Voter

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    predicate, I think you might catch more flys with honey, than you will with vinegar.
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