Penn's camp accuses St. Pierre of cheating

Discussion in 'MMA, Boxing & Other Combat Sports' started by Big K, Jan 31, 2009.

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  1. Chamberfool

    Chamberfool HAhahAHahaHAhahaHhaha

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    im getting pretty tired of this shit already.

    I mean, you got all these guys coming out of the woodwork with complaints after the fact like its ALWAYS BEEN A BIG DEAL.

    none of the people who were talking about the fuckin greasing stood a chance at all even if there was vasoline on his back. All of a sudden motherfuckers is talking like that one in a million chance loss of a submission attempt might have cost them the right.

    yea the secret to GSP's greatness is vasoline. Im sure the AC has it in their power to check that shit out appropriately. the amount of burn BJ's camp is giving it sound like whining and sore losery to me. its not like the fight was even remotely close. This shit just makes that incredible event tainted
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  2. Ben Official

    Ben Official Active Member

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    nope, he was just trying to maintain a high guard as everyone should do when someone is in their guard. thats bj's guard game as well as most high level bjj fighters. you want to break their base and keep your legs high on their back to make sure they can't base up allowing for leverage for punches. bj was not going for an omoplata, or a gogo. he was simply trying to keep a high guard like he always does. he wasn't even going for rubber, he was going for crooked guard. from their he can work a number of sweeps and submissions (one of them being an omo, sure) and perhaps more importantly, prevent gsp from landing any effective blows. just wanted to clear that up.
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  3. SiFu

    SiFu Burning Down Babylon!

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    If someone is greased and you wrestle with them....wouldnt you end up with grease on you too??? I mean surely BJ woulda noticed if his legs and body started to get oily an shit right!!?!?


    GSP seems like a stand up dude, if he was greased then I think it was on his trainers and not him....who knows tho


    PEACE
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  4. ANDtheMC

    ANDtheMC New Member

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    I watched the fight again Ben. I think I saw three different situations where it appeared BJ Penn went after omoplata's in the first two rounds. After that, I didn't see it. But that is the only submission I saw him attempt. He didn't even get close any of the times. Most of it was high guard but there were times where he opened his guard and tried to whip one of his legs past St. Pierre's head but couldn't do it. I feel those were omoplata attempts.
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  5. Ben Official

    Ben Official Active Member

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    i thought you were going off those .gifs. do you have a link where i can watch it again?

    any time bj goes for his classic rubber guard position, i dont like calling it "going for an omo or gogo" because those are only 2 possibilities. theres so much he can do from there, that i wouldn't call it "going for it" until he actually pushes gsps head away and swings his right leg out for the omo, or pulls gsp's head down for the gogo.

    calling his bj's rubber guard an attempt at an omo or gogo is like calling the de la riva guard an attempt at a leg lock, or calling x guard an attempt at a sweep, or calling crooked guard an attempt at a kimura, etc. you know? thats only one of many submissions he can go for in that position. hes not intentionally going for either at that point until he commits to either of them.
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  6. ANDtheMC

    ANDtheMC New Member

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    Nah, I meant throughout the fight. Those were just high guards. I even said that prior to you saying it... Go to MMALINKER dot com.

    To me, even if you don't lock it and actually go for it and get the shin across, you can still see when they're going for it. Especially if you're trying to swing your leg past the head... Even if you don't necessarily get it there, you know the person's going for it. There's actually a point where he was holding his guard in the second round and you can tell he was tryna stretch his leg in front of St. Pierre's head but couldn't. IMO, from rolling and whatnot, I know if I was tryna do that it usually means I'm going for an omoplata or a gogoplata. So I just go off that.

    Yeah, I said the same thing. And even in the first round, there was a time he was using the rubber guard wrong. He had his arm over his shin instead of reaching under it and grasping it. That's where I was sayin' he used the rubber wrong and GSP just muscled through it. He held onto it when he went under....

    And I'm not talking about going for omoplata's or gogoplata's just because he was sustaining rubber guard. You can actually see when he tried to pull it through and go after it but he couldn't get his shin in front of St. Pierre. It looked identical to when he did it in the first fight except he couldn't actually get the shin across.... And the only reason he didn't commit to them was because he couldn't... HE COULDN'T get the shin across. But he was trying to.
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  7. Ben Official

    Ben Official Active Member

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    some how i missed this.


    well, my only disagreement is that your just assuming hes going for it. hes not actually going for it, so it doesn't really work to say he was going for it. right?

    LMAO did you jsut say bj penn was using the rubber guard wrong? dude bj penn was using the rubber guard before eddie bravo called it the rubber guard. he doesn't do eddie's techniques. thats bj's rubber guard. he uses both hand positions because he can.
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  8. ANDtheMC

    ANDtheMC New Member

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    Ok.... Put it like this. You roll so I'm sure you'd understand. You're in somebody's guard and you feel somebody tryna get one leg high across your back where it almost appears he's tryna bring it in front of your face. First thought that'll go across you mind?

    hahaha... He was using it wrong at one point. Whether you wanna give Eddie Bravo his due or not, his system is correct. And in his system, when you're in "mission control", you're supposed to hold onto your leg with an underhook type lock; not over. You lose power in it and it showed when he was tryna hold GSP down with it... GSP muscled up, he lost his grip and rubber guard was finished. When he held it with the underhook, he held it much longer. True story.
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  9. Ben Official

    Ben Official Active Member

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    if someone has me in rubber guard and is pulling their foot in front of my face i think they are either going for a straight arm bar, an omoplata, a far side arm bar, far side kimura, sweep, or a gogo (which i hope they go for so i can pass). the possibility of a gogo working from rubberguard is very slim. in no way do i think they are only going for an omo or gogo.

    man, bj doesn't use eddie bravo's technique. he's not applying it wrong. thats bj's technique. not eddies. bj was doing it before eddie. hes the black belt. what are you? do you even have a belt? do you even train at a real academy? i thought i remembered you saying you were one of the many on this site that "trains with some guy who knows bjj but doesn't take formal classes or train at a real academy". i mean you couldn't even spell jiu jitsu right until i finally corrected you lol.
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  10. ANDtheMC

    ANDtheMC New Member

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    When I saw him going for the omo, it wasn't during rubber guard. And I never heard of a far side kimura... And how would you think straight arm bar when it looks pretty obvious they're tryna bring the shin around your head to be posted on your neck? If they went for an arm bar like that, that should would be ridiculously sloppy and the chances of getting it would be slim to none. And kimura's are a lot more obvious and you wouldn't try to get your leg past the face.

    And your point is? I trained with a du' who came from Cambodia and trained muay thai and jiu-jitsu as a life style out there. What's your point? Sorry, but I don't have the money to pay for schooling like that... And I'm not saying I'm better than you are or anybody else at it but does it not say something that I'm able to have conversations on "non-basic" techniques? I've subbed du''s who've been training jits for twice as long as me. Again, so what's your point?

    And wow, I didn't spell jiu-jitsu right. OH NO!!!! Again, sorry but I haven't formally been trained in school. That's like automatically saying someone who went to school for sales automatically knows how to sell better than someone who learned to sell just through experience and doesn't have the "formal training".... AGAIN, I DON'T HAVE THE MONEY FOR THAT. I'M NOT WELL OFF....

    And what does the black belt mean? That's like saying Gracie jiu-jitsu is flawless. The regular guard has been proven ineffective (not 100% but has lost effectiveness) in MMA. So does that not mean Eddie Bravo isn't better than A LOT OF JIU-JITSU BLACK BELTS WHO'VE DONE IT LONGER? Longer doesn't mean shit. That's like saying a guy who trained Kung Fu for 15 years is automatically better fighter than a person who's only done muay thai for 8 years.

    Did Bravo not defeat a Gracie in ADCC? A Gracie that's probably been doing it much longer than him? BE F'REAL!

    I'm not saying my jiu-jitsu is better than BJ Penn's but fact of the matter is, YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO UNDERHOOK WITH YOUR WRIST IN THE MODIFIED CORRECT RUBBER GUARD. AND IT MAKES SENSE! Use some common sense du'... Go ahead and put someone in mission control underhooking and then try overhooking it. See which one is easily broken. GO AHEAD!

    Your sense doesn't work. You don't have to be better than Wanderlei Silva to call out what his flaws are in striking that needs work. Wowww... He's done it longer... So I can't say he did something wrong? Just because he's trained longer means I can't call out a flaw? THINK BEFORE YOU TALK.
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  11. Ben Official

    Ben Official Active Member

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    ok im sick of having like 9 arguments at once lol...

    first let me address
    the first round? the fight didnt even go to the ground lol.


    it wasn't during rubber guard? can you please point out the point in the fight he was going for this? you already said you just assume hes going for it when they pull their shin over their face... thats rubber guard. so where did he go for it when he wasnt in rubber guard?


    and about bj using it wrong. what part of the fight (round/minute) do you see him using it incorrectly? i hope you're not talking about 3:16 in round 2 during the brief 2 seconds when he starts to pull his leg up and doesn't even get to the step of reaching around with his other hand to underhook his leg before gsp slips out due to his apparent greasyness (god damn that slippery-ness looks crazy in round 2 after watching it again).


    and dude, the main reason im questioning your whole bjj knowledge is simply because you couldn't even spell it right until i finally corrected you on it after being tired of you talking about it when you constantly spelled it wrong. theres more but im really in a rush.

    i gotta run to class now... but ill briefly address the rest.

    now your getting into eddie bravo stuff... dude he tapped out royler once, WHAT ELSE HAS HE DONE IN HIS CAREER? that was it. he taps out royler once, and he writes a book, now hes some jiu jitsu legend.

    im late. ill address the rest later.
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  12. Cognitive D.K

    Cognitive D.K New Member

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    yeah man gsp sucks he has only dominated 170 because of vasoline!!!!!!!

    gimme a break... i guess thats why fitch is still tasting glove everytime he swallows to this day
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  13. ANDtheMC

    ANDtheMC New Member

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    Or was it the second. I remember it was in the first go around on the ground so it must've been second then...

    No that's not. Rubber guard is when you lock someone's posture down by underhooking your ankle to lock your opponent down. The shin IN FRONT OF THE FACE is used to push off for a omoplata or choke someone out with a gogoplata (doesn't work too often unless it's from the mount)....

    It was in regular guard and he actually broke his guard to try to get one of his legs higher and pass his face. He couldn't do it tho'...

    hahaha... I don't think it was the "grease"... It was sweat. And it wasn't only at 3:16... There was a time before that he did the same thing. I'm watching the fight again now...

    tell me what more then. technique-wise, have I really been off about any technique we discussed? again, I don't have the FORMAL KNOWLEDGE being I didn't go to school for it. Again, that's WAYYYYYYYYYYY out of my budget. I'd love to train in a school or academy but I don't have the money for that...

    How many people can say that tapped Royler Gracie? C'mon man. And on top of that, if he's not legit why do SOOOO MANY UFC fighters go to 'em? Some of the best in UFC on the ground. Dustin Hazelett and Frank Mir have both went to learn the rubber guard. And he did modify the rubber guard a lot to get it to where it's at now.

    I'm not going to make it seem like I'm all knowledgeable on the rubber guard because I'm not. I want to learn it and master it but the little I know how Bravo's system, he has modified A LOT to get it to where it's at.
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  14. Ben Official

    Ben Official Active Member

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    Mark, we aren't even discussing that right now. Its clear gsp would have won without it..

    And again andthemc ill address the rest of you post when I'm done with class.

    But dude.. Cmon if you train in jiu jitsu you should at least
    know how to spell jiu jitsu.. Tell me you wouldn't call that into question if you saw someone else doing it lol. Its pretty bad when you train in something and don't know how to spell it. Your sales analogy doesn't make sense lol. If you study sales outside of school you should at least know how to spell "sales" lmao
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  15. ANDtheMC

    ANDtheMC New Member

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    You'd know how to spell "sales" because who the fuck doesn't know how to spell "sales"?? When I started training, it was all over the place. I got fucked up... It wasn't even in a gym. It was often reps on hard tile floors and full speed rolling.... I never went into a school where I see the words "jiu-jitsu". I never even knew about it before I started being trained. So to learn how to spell the word "jiu-jitsu" never meant shit to me. It was always about new techniques, transitions, set ups, and what not. Learning the concepts of the locks. There was a point where I knew how to do numerous subs I didn't even put an effort to remembering what they were called. I just did reps and used whatever I was doin' reps of.

    So for me to not know how to spell "jiu-jitsu" doesn't shame me at all. I know my techniques. That's all that matters to me, honestly.
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  16. Ben Official

    Ben Official Active Member

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    ok.. wow. theres a lot to respond to and i'll do it now. from now on lets take one argument at a time. lol pleeeease
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  17. Ben Official

    Ben Official Active Member

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    how would i think straight arm bar? several ways. first, when you pull your shin over their face, its already there

    [​IMG]

    see it? all he has to do is get his left leg under his adversarys chin. from there, he just needs to pull his opponents right arm to the middle of his chest (or even leave it under his arm for a variation) and point the thumb up of course. then he just rotates his hips to the left. from there, he can keep rotating until hes face down to the mat and finish there, or he can reach all the way under past his opponent to the outside of his right knee with his right arm to go for the basic arm bar sweep, finishing in the typical arm bar you'd see from mount. (a few small details skipped to not cloud it up too much). it actually works way more than an omo and of course wayyyy more than a gogo. (i recall you saying it was easier to get the gogo from mount- negative. its a slim shot of getting it from guard, even slimmer from mount unless your aoki fighting someone who sucks on the ground).

    it can also be done like this on the other arm:
    JudoForum.com > Omoplata armbar combo from rubber guard

    theres tons of variations dude. not only gogo and omo. and i dont even do rubber guard except in vary rare occasions when im just fucking around, im sure theres wayyy more variations than i know out there. i much prefer crooked guard.

    im sorry but where did i say longer is better? of course its not. how else would bj win the mundials after 3 years of training? please point me to where i said this


    yes. he did. he defeated royler ONCE. like i said before... NAME ONE OTHER ACCOMPLISHMENT EDDIE BRAVO HAS DONE. he taps out royler once now he thinks hes the shit, and is look at as a legend. hes hated on in bjj gyms everywhere. hes seriously looked at as a legend dude. its bs. his techniques are interesting, but again, he doesn't deserve to be treated like a god because he taps someone good out one time in his life.



    can you please go back and watch the video and tell me exactly when you are seeing what you are seeing? its hard to discuss when i have to guess at which point of the fight you are talking about.
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  18. Mac Sabbath

    Mac Sabbath New Member

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  19. ANDtheMC

    ANDtheMC New Member

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    Wouldn't that almost be like an inverted arm bar? The only way I would see an arm bar from there is the way Dustin Hazelett did it to Tamdan Mcrory. Or the way you said about facing down... But I see what you're saying from there regardless.

    And again, gogo's almost never work. I stated this earlier too, but I do believe it's easier to get from the mount. You usually don't get the sub from it but the actual locking of it then they push you into an arm bar. I've done it numerous times before.

    Knees high up beneath the arm pit, keep your body low maintain head control... They wrap an arm around you and you post your leg... Grab the leg you posted and force it to the throat. Grab high on the back of the head and pull or reach behind the neck and grab the toe. They usually try to roll you off and at that point, the arm on the side of the leg you posted is trapped so it goes straight into an arm bar... OR, you can even shift your body and go after the opposite arm, being he can't hold onto his other trapped arm to avoid it...

    Works for me...

    Again, I'm not claiming my jiu-jitsu is better than anybody's. I know the techniques.... I'm pretty slick with it because I'm flexible, quick, and unorthodox because I'm skinny and do different things to try to work certain subs. I'm sure you're better than me. But to say I'm suspect with jiu-jitsu because of me not spelling it correctly doesn't seem to make sense when you and I have had several discussions on several set ups and what not and I kept up with everything. Maybe my terms aren't correct because AGAIN, I did not go to school for it. I learned the moves. It's kinda like you have a street ball player that plays on the streets and gets pretty good but wouldn't know what a few of the plays a college team would run is called... But I do know my technique...

    And I rarely use rubber guard either because I haven't mastered it. I don't wanna fuck up and let someone pass. But I see every single advantage of the rubber guard and want to learn it...

    You did... I'll quote you right here:
    It doesn't matter if BJ was doing it longer than Eddie. I think Eddie's version of the rubber guard is one of thee most respected, if not the most.

    HAHAHA... I understand what you're saying but at the same time, how many people could tap out Royler "ONCE IN THEIR LIFE"? Does that alone not say something? Someone who's been training since he was probably 3 or 4 years old. Maybe younger being the way the Gracie family is...

    It's in the second round, I'm pretty sure. I'll watch it again. Gimme a 'lil....
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  20. Ben Official

    Ben Official Active Member

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    alright time to train but i think we're getting somewhere now.

    about going for the arm bar from mount when you set up the gogo... i love that dude.. i actually saw it for the first time when Vinnie did it in a fight on TUF and the next night i actually pulled it off when rolling haha. i have that one in my arsenal now and use it every once in awhile, i never actually go for the gogo though, only to set up the arm bar.

    anyways, about my "bj was doing it before eddie. hes the black belt" i think that was a miscommunication. what i was meaning to say is that bj has been doing the rubber guard way before eddie bravo called it the rubber guard.... meaning he didn't learn it from eddie, so saying eddies usage of it is correct and bj's is wrong isn't really fair. eddies might be more effective but that doesn't mean if bj doesn't do it that way hes wrong, since bj has been doing it before eddie "invented" it. on that note, i still dont know the point where your saying he did something wrong. as soon as you find me the time of everything your takling about it will be easier to discuss.


    and i'm going to drop the thing about mis-spelling "jiu jitsu". its just a little bit ironic that someone has been training and doesn't know how to spell that thing they are training in (unless you are pretty new). i'd think that even if you don't go to a school where you see it on the window every day, you'd pick up a book, look on a website, watch a video, or anything that mentions "jiu jitsu". but i'm not going to hold that against you any more. i dont know how long you've been training it was just a little ironic to me.


    and to tapping out royler... a lot of people have tapped him out. thats how you get good, you tap. lots of people have tapped royler in their life. if i get lucky and tap someone out, i shouldn't become famous over it if i can't do it again on anyone else. you know?
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