Muslims don't worship a moon god. They worship a scientifically illiterate one.

Discussion in 'The Sanctuary' started by AliceHouse, Apr 18, 2013.

  1. AliceHouse

    AliceHouse The House Always Wins

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    The Science of the Koran
    Link: The science of the Koran | Futile Democracy

    Science-in-hindsight, is what the Koran should be called. Very vague ‘science’ at that. It is a book that you can find obscure verses and claim scientific understanding….. after the science has already discovered something. Like when people suggested Nostradamus predicted 9/11…. but were only able to make the connection after 9/11. The Koran is similar… wait until something is known, and then claim Islam knew it all along. This isn’t science, this is absurd opportunism.

    I was first introduced to Islam’s claims on scientific advancement, and forethought, when listening to the Muslim speaker, Hamza Tzortzis try to point to the Koran’s description of mountains as proof that the Holy book is divine. He claimed that there is no way Mohammad could have known that mountains act as ‘pegs’ – as claimed in the Koran – at that time. This refers to the fact that mountains extend downwards into the upper mantle of the Earth. The moment he said it, the Muslim observers in the room were taken in, as if he’d just proven the existence of God. They were awed by his vision. Sadly, they were also woefully misinformed and manipulated (which is of course, the job of the religious preacher). The Koran in this instance, states:

    “Have We not made the earth as a wide expanse, And the mountains as pegs?”

    - Typically vague, but also wrong. Clearly Allah is asking a rhetorical question. If an answer were permitted, it would be an unequivocal ‘no’. Though Islam Guide.com thinks the answer is a definitive yes backed by modern science.

    Modern earth sciences have proven that mountains have deep roots under the surface of the ground and that these roots can reach several times their elevations above the surface of the ground. So the most suitable word to describe mountains on the basis of this information is the word ‘peg,’ since most of a properly set peg is hidden under the surface of the ground. The history of science tells us that the theory of mountains having deep roots was introduced only in the latter half of the nineteenth century.

    - All of the above, simply isn’t true. A mountain is not stabilising anything, it holds nothing together. It is like a human in water, part is above the surface, part is below, but you wouldn’t refer to the part of the body below the surface as a peg. It simply floats. Likewise, a mountain simply floats on the mantle.
    Islam-guide.com continues its plague of ignorance, with the conclusion:

    Likewise, the modern theory of plate tectonics holds that mountains work as stabilizers for the earth.

    I recall my science lessons at school, my geography lessons of which I retained information from, to the abandonment of all mathematical teaching, which I quickly learned to discard through pure hatred of the subject. I recall that Volcanoes do not extend as ‘pegs’. Contractional tectonics also form mountains – the Appalachians for example, are definitely not ‘pegs’. The Sierra Navada mountain range has mountains created by what is known as fault block mountains, which are formed when rocks slide through the slopes of the Earth’s crusts. None of which act at all as stabilizers. To claim so, would get a huge roar of laughter from the scientific community.

    The reason that the Koran refers to mountains as “pegs” is for it’s next claim:

    And He has set firm mountains in the earth so that it would not shake with you… (Quran, 16:15)

    Now, islam-guide.com again tries to, rather embarrassingly, explain this quote, and link it to modern science:

    Mountains also play an important role in stabilizing the crust of the earth. They hinder the shaking of the earth.

    - Firstly, they don’t hinder the shaking of the Earth. In fact, mountains are formed by the shaking of the Earth. Secondly, that isn’t what the Koran says. It states quite unequivocally that mountains will ensure the World that the Earth will NOT shake with you, in any way. Well, tell that to the people of Japan. An Earthquake so strong, the island of Honshu was moved eight feet eastward. If Allah had intended for mountains to prevent the Earth from shaking, he failed, miserably.

    Often, I have been told by the religious faithful that their Holy Book contains advance science that humanity, at the time of writing the Holy Book, could not possibly have known.

    Followers of Islam, more so than Christianity or Judaism in this instance, claim their book is filled with advanced scientific knowledge. To the believer, it’s somewhat of an assurance that their scripture is anything but a book of delusions and vicious hatreds. To the unbeliever, its poor attempt to break the increasing truths offered by science.

    Every claim of scientific advancement in the Koran, is either too ambiguous to take seriously, already knowledge widely accepted at the time, or just plain wrong. It is extraordinary for Islamic scholars to claim that their Holy Book holds any sort of scientific truth. A very quick critical analysis of the Koran, and of scientific knowledge already known, long before Mohammad’s time, proves that the Koran offers nothing new. It is beyond irrational to claim it does.

    For example:

    “Seest thou not that Allah merges Night into Day And He merges Day into Night?” [31:29]

    - This, according to Way to Allah.com is, quite bizarrely, proof that the Koran held the knowledge of the Earth’s spherical shape:

    Merging here means that the night slowly and gradually changes to day and vice versa. This phenomenon can only take place if the earth is spherical. If the earth was flat, there would have been a sudden change from night to day and from day to night.

    - Well, why didn’t the Koran say that the Earth is spherical, if that’s what it meant? As opposed to a deeply ambiguous suggestion? Not only that, but it is wrong. The Earth spinning on its axis is what creates the illusion of day and night, not “Allah”. I cannot imagine a reputable astronomer or physicist would phrase the day turning into night, as a God merging the two together.
    If we are going to take deeply ambiguous statements and claim they are proof of scientific advancement, with respect to the Earth’s shape, then we must be consistent:

    [15:19] And the earth We have spread out like a carpet; set thereon mountains firm and immovable; and produced therein all kinds of things in due balance.

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  2. AliceHouse

    AliceHouse The House Always Wins

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    - This seems to suggest that the Earth is flat, like a carpet, and that Mountains cannot in any way move.
    Not only is the idea of a flat Earth scientifically wrong, it was even known to be wrong by the time the Koran was written. It offers no new insight, it simply offers an idea that was defunct around the 3rd Century BC. About 800 years before the Koran. Aristarchus of Samos suggested the Sun was the centre of the Universe, in the 3rd Century BC; this piece of wisdom was truly way ahead of its time. Aristarchus offers us a glimpse into scientific reality on a scale that, 800 years later, the Koran hadn’t even came close to, and Aristarchus certainly didn’t claim divine revelation for his predictions. Unsurprisingly, flat Earth predictions were borne out of Ancient Mesopotamia, and so it would seem that cosmological claims in the Koran can be viewed as earlier traditions coming out of Mesopotamia thousands of years prior to the Koran. Heavens, Firmament, great deep, pillars, the concept of the Earth being flat like a carpet, all this nonsense can also found in the Bible. Educated people knew the Earth was round, as envisaged by Ptolemy and before him, Aristotle, long before the Koran; which still seems to suggest that Earth is flat.

    I’m not the only one who suggests that the Koran says the Earth is flat. Tafsir al-Jalalayn, a prominent exegeses of the Koran that still holds much importance, 600 years after it was written, states quite openly:

    ” … and his saying sutihat makes it obvious that the earth is flat, and this is certified by Ulama’ ash-shar’a (the shari’a theologians), not a globe as it is said by ahlul-hay’a (the laymen).”

    Let’s for one second accept that the Koran states that the Earth is egg shaped (this translation, is rather new), is this new to the Koran? Well, no. Let’s note that before becoming a Prophet, Muhammad was a merchant. A trader. He had contact with different cultures, and would most definitely have come into contact with ideas especially those coming out of Greece. The Greeks knew the Earth was round in the 6th Century BC. Plato taught students that the Earth was a sphere. Aristotle’s incredible evidence based in astronomy was way ahead of its time, predating Islam by a millennium. Aristotle noted that the shadow of the Earth on the Moon during a lunar eclipse, is round. Eratosthenes even attempted to work out the Earth’s circumference, 700 years before Muhammad’s time. These great Greek scientific leaders, have seemingly had their brilliance hijacked by Islam, which claims their achievements as their own.

    A simple observation of Greek history, finds that by the time that the Koran sprung up, Greek cosmology and culture had spread as far as Afghanistan and even India, having penetrated Arabia centuries previous.

    Much like the Nostradamus obsessives, believers in the Koran cannot predict a new scientific discovery, until after the discovery is made. They then re-translate their Holy Book, and surprise! “We were right all along!” Fans of Nostradamus will only assign a prediction of his, after an event has taken place. It is weak reasoning, and it certainly proves absolutely nothing. If the Angel Gabriel genuinely did present Mohammad with scientific knowledge written in the Koran, then the Angel Gabriel was less knowledgable in the 7th Century, than Aristotle was, 1000 years earlier. I’m not sure that’s too good an advert for Heaven.

    On the subject of taking the translation too far, and just inventing their own translation from the original, to suit objections, there is one doing the rounds that amuses me greatly. The claim is that the Koran actually accurately describes the Big Bang, here:

    It is We Who have built the universe with (Our creative) power, and, verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Surat adh-Dhariyat: 47)

    - The problem here is, the experts claim that this isn’t actually what the original translation says. The translation, according to the the Centre for Muslim-Jewish engagement at the University of California, the verse actually reads:

    Yusuf Ali: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of space.
    Pickthal: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
    Shakir: And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.


    - This is clearly vastly different from the more modern translation. The constant use of the phrases “heavens and Earth” echoes the same offering from the Bible and other ancient sources, which considered the universe to consist pretty much entirely of the Earth and heaven, so it is unsurprising that the Koran mentions them together, all the time. The Koran, again, proves to be a product of its time. If it is divine, it is horribly lazy of its creator. The Koran is pretty conclusive with its cosmology; the Earth is flat, there are seven heavens, and it is geocentric.

    Another favourite of the Muslim community, is to quote the Koran’s claims on embryology:

    And indeed We created man out of an extract of clay. (12) Thereafter We made him as a Nutfah in a safe lodging. (13) Then We made the Nutfah into a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood), then We made bones, then We clothed the bones with flesh, and then We brought it forth as another creation. So Blessed is Allâh, the Best of creators.[] (14)

    - This is one of those instances where the Koran is not vague. It claims that man is made from a clot of congealed blood. Whilst being entirely wrong, the moulding together of a drop of blood, with embryology already existed, is not new to the Koran, and was quite obviously stolen by Muhammad, from the Babylonian Enuma Elish tablet. When you copy something from another source, and the other source is entirely wrong, thus making your claim entirely wrong, then it is clear your book is not divine.

    The quote from the Koran also claims that the bones come first. Nutfah by the way, means sperm, in the best possible translation into English. To be precise, nutfatun amshaajin means a mixed drop of sperm. It doesn’t refer to the female ovum, in any such translation (and believe me, those who believe that the Koran contains scientific truth, like to say, when questioned about the vague, ambiguous, and wrong statements in the Koran, that it can be translated differently; they only tend to play this card when their first translation is quite obviously wrong).

    The word used for blood clot, is alaqa. This word has been translated into ‘blood clot’ by Maulana Muhammad Ali, in 1951, Muhammad Zafrulla Khan in 1971, the Supreme Sunni and Shii Councils of the Republic of Lebanon in 1980, Hamidullah in 1981, and Indonesian Department of Religious Affairs in 1984. It’s pretty obvious that Alaqa is best translated to mean blood clot. The problem with this is, there is no stage in human development where the fetus is a clot of blood. It is just false science.

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  3. AliceHouse

    AliceHouse The House Always Wins

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    When it comes to the joining together of male sperm, and the female egg. Perhaps the Koran is unique and shows great forethought and revelation? Well, no. The Hanbali scholar Ibn Qayyim, in his book Kitab al-tibyan fi aqsam al-qur’an, gives us a statement from the lips of Mohammad himself:

    He is created of both, the semen of the man and the semen of the woman. The man’s semen is thick and forms the bones and the tendons. The woman’s semen is fine and forms the flesh and blood.

    - Quite obviously, this is wrong. The “great” Prophet, is entirely wrong.

    Dr Basim Musallam Director of the Centre of Middle Eastern Studies at the University of Cambridge says:

    “Hippocrates, Aristotle, and Galen were as much a part of Middle Eastern Arabic culture as anything else in it…… “The stages of development which the Qur’an and Hadith established for believers agreed perfectly with Galen’s scientific account….There is no doubt that medieval thought appreciated this agreement between the Qur’an and Galen, for Arabic science employed the same Qur’anic terms to describe the Galenic stages”

    - Turns out, the Koran merely states something that was known centuries earlier, alongside completely wrong ‘science’. All the Koran does here, is spend a long time catching up to scientific thought at the time.

    Does the reference to sperm mean that the Koran has stumbled upon a great revelation; that sperm is partly responsible for life? Well, again……. no. Not even slightly. Aristotle had pointed to Anaxagorus, a Greek pre-Socratic philosopher, around 450bc, who stated that sperm came only from the male, and that the female simply provided a place of nurture. So, the “safe lodging” which Muslims say refers to the womb, was known as that, 1000 years before the Koran.

    Secondly, it is important to note that bones are not created first, and slowly fleshed out. Bones and muscle tissue are created simultaneously. For a far more eloquent explanation, whilst at the same time dismissing the Islamic claim on embryology of Hamza Tzortzis, I would strongly advise watching this video [embedded below], as Hamza attempts to explain embryology and the Koran’s claims on embryological truth, to……. a leading embryologist. The result is predictable; Tortzis and whomever he is with are proven wrong, and so they resort to changing the interpretation of the text, to suit the objection. Weak, weak, weak.

    Needless to say, the Koran is wrong. There is never a stage in the development of a fetus, in which bones exist alone, much like there being no stage in fetus development when the fetus is a clot of blood. It would appear that we can find more information from Wikipedia on the development of a fetus, than we can from the all knowing master of the Universe. Wikipedia > Allah?

    And do we really believe that we needed a 7th century divine commentary to tell humanity that sperm creates human life? The Koran, simply stole this idea from the ancient Greeks, without giving them any credit for it.
    J. Needham, an author who specialised in Embryology, in his book “A History of Embryology” states the importance of Ancient Greek, Indian and Egyptian Embryology, says that the Koran’s Embryological claims were simply:

    “a seventh-century echo of Aristotle and the Ayer-veda”

    - It appears more and more so, that the Koran is simply a collection of religious dogma attempting to claim the forethought of secular science as espoused by great minds like Aristotle, as its own. It is similar to when a girl in my Politics seminar tried to claim that Christianity invented Democracy. Religion trying to latch onto human advancement, and claim it as its own, should be treated with the contempt it deserves.

    To summerise, the Earth is not flat, mountains do not hold the Earth down preventing it from shaking, and humans do not start out as bone, slowly fleshed out over time. A God who presents so many vague statements is bad enough, but an omniscient being presenting his creation with what seems to be drunkenly erratic commentaries on certain aspects of the World and humanity which turn out to be entirely false on the most basic of examination, is a God that not only should not be taken seriously, but should never have any sort of political power over the workings of society, and should be challenged by every free thinking human being, at every possible opportunity. That is how humanity advances beyond primitive dogma.

    There is absolutely no scientific credibility laying in the pages of the Koran.

    [youtube]msOlpj886H4[/youtube]
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  4. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    That video was amusing.

    i <3 ur sig btw
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  5. Coup d'état

    Coup d'état Don't believe the hype

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    subbed...gonna read this later.


    You know @AliceHouse, I was thinking about a particular scripture in the Hebrew bible...it said something to the effect that the sun goes about its circuits, and in another place it says Yah maketh the sun rise and set over the earth.

    Now, I believe every word that comes out of His mouth (and striving my best to obey) and I believe that today the mainline consensus is that the earth revolves around the sun. I am starting to think different, that the sun goes about the earth on its circuits...and that the earth does not spin.

    Do a thought experiment. Say you fly in an airplane from Tampa to LA. If the earth is spinning in an eastward projection from the west, then wouldn't flying west bound to LA take more than 5 1/2 hours according to the laws of physics, if in fact the earth is spinning around 600 MPH ? A plane travels at this speed roughly. I'm aware of the explanation that the whole entire atmosphere spins, and in that we can't feel it. But is this really correct ?

    Or was the sun of such importance to Satan (to make YAH's creation rebel he will do anything as we see) that he had the nations fooled to worship it and they in turn placed it in the center of everything...there is something to this. Everything has a sun logo.


    Just some thoughts. I'll be back to read this, props for sharing.
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  6. AliceHouse

    AliceHouse The House Always Wins

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    TheBigPayback, indeed. Though the sig is sarcastic. We should all full well know that Pat Robertson is an evil and vile vindictive human.

    Coup d'état, well... We can look at it in a few ways. One is accept the scripture as the undeniable truth. However, doing this presents a few problems. Namely that in accepting it, we deny other things. Things such as the ability to land on the moon, to launch satelltes, or utilize cell phones, for example. Or we can streeeeaaatch the scripture out to fit a better model. The Earth rotates around the sun, sure, but the sun does indeed have it's circuits. In the form of rotating itself around the Milky Way, and it's cycle of death and rebirth. Another view is we can take it to be metaphorical sayings. Simply that the "sun rises and sets" aren't literal, just figures of speech.

    Or... we disregard scripture.

    Scripture says one thing, but observations of the universe tell us something different. Which one should we believe? Well, I should put it rather that... Scripture asserts that the Sun rotates around the Earth. Right? So, what evidence do we have to back it up?

    Primarily observation. We quite well see the sun rising and setting, so that must be what is happening.

    But that's really where the observation ends. We can actually see the Earth moving around the sun thanks to things like the Hubble telescope and the International Space Station. Now, that might seem a bit... out of this world, so let's look at some other examples. The Earth casts a shadow on the moon, for example. (Interestingly, the Quran scriptures state that the moon provides it's own light. Which we know is silly, because it only reflects light.) Or even observing the stars over time. The Ancient Greeks did just this to prove to themselves a round heliocentric solar system.

    Of course, things like these don't really prove anything to one that doesn't understand. So to return to your thought experiment... yes. A plane is affected by the rotation of the Earth. But you don't have to take my word for it, try it out for yourself. Here is a link to a famous experiment in which everything done was terrestrial.

    But it moves! How we know the Earth rotates. – Starts With A Bang

    The only real question is... what do you do? Disregard the evidence and continue to believe in scripture? Stretch the meaning to make it fit? Take it as metaphorical? Or disregard scripture in favor of the evidence that has falsified it?
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  7. Coup d'état

    Coup d'état Don't believe the hype

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    @AliceHouse I would not be so confident in the official story about the moon landings, etc. Cell phones and satellites are a non issue really. The moon landing is entirely different thing, the reasons for the propaganda and all else is quite deep.

    It has been shown not to happen, could not happen. Though make no mistake I don't harbor a grudge because you think otherwise and am happy whatever you want to believe.

    I would not be so fast to jump on that band wagon. We clearly do not know what nasa can and can't do outside of it's PR. Limits are limits. And there are limits.

    Does the earth really cast a shadow on the moon ? Or is it the moon casting it's light in phases, because the moon was created to be for signs and for seasons. To mark them...etc.

    Not to open an argument, but really think about everything the nations offer to you, espically western ones, they all confederate against Yah's followers and people Israel.

    One thing is for sure, a sound belief in the word out YAH's own mouth requires no stretch or suspense of his truth at the capabilities of men and what they can do, rather it's the opposite and the other way around. Men are men. There is no such thing as a genius that we so often call "THEY".

    There is no compromise. If there is, it's all engineered such as the moon landings and the creation of science as our new god which pits one against the Creator if one is unlearned in knowledge of Him...under the presumption that a stretch must be done to believe your Creators mouth means men and the work of their hands have clouded understanding by his deception. Man is not quite capable of the things we are taught (ie moon landings)

    Just my two cent...now I got to read the article posted. I hope you respect my thoughts and consider them. I respect yours.

    please consider this:

    Jerimiah 31:35-37


    35 Thus saith YAHUWAH, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; YAHUWAH of hosts is his name:

    36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith YAH, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

    37 Thus saith YAHUWAH; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith YAHUWAH.


    Men are trying to search out and number the stars and measure the heavens. It can't be done, they are trying to make YAH forget his covenant. And the ocean bottoms. Can't be done. Ha Satan knows scripture and what YAH has spoken. There are legions working hard to deceive. Believe half of what you see and nothing of what you hear out of NASA's mouth. Seek into the issue and not by the official story. Words of advice.

    Put not your trust in the works of mans hands. Put your trust in the Most High, the name above ALL names: YAHUWAH. We are fearfully and wonderfully made.

    Selah (pause and think).
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  8. AliceHouse

    AliceHouse The House Always Wins

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    Must be nice and cozy in that fantasy world of yours, huh?
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  9. ChromeDepot

    ChromeDepot Member

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    Wait...Coup, are you suggesting that the Sun revolves around us? I'm at a loss for words, bruh.
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  10. reggie jax

    reggie jax Well-Known Member

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    i want you to think seriously for a second about what you're saying here. do you think that you are the first person to consider this kind of scenario since we've known the earth spins? that all of the worlds physicists have somehow overlooked this very basic aspect of the heliocentric model? or are they all lying and conspiring to deceive us? it must be one or the other, there is no other possible explanation, and both defy common sense.
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  11. x calibur

    x calibur

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    you cannot defeat religion. it's too powerful.
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  12. AliceHouse

    AliceHouse The House Always Wins

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    @Coup d'état, consider the following:

    Foucault pendulum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Mathematical, repeatable, testable, falsifiable science. This in particular because you can look into it yourself, no NASA required. (Though if you have any evidence to all of NASA being a sham, there are a ton of countries that would love to hear about it. Russia, for exxample.)

    Again, you have a choice.

    A) Stick to scripture, disregard reality.
    B) Stretch the meaning of scripture to apply to reality.
    C) Decide the scripture is metaphorical.
    D) Disregard scripture, stick to reality.

    I'll give you a hint. If the world were to end, but somehow humans survived, only all of our records, books, knowledge and all that were to disappear, I can assure you this: All of our scientific knowledge will be rediscovered, because it never changes. However, stories of talking snakes, plague wielding Hebrews, and Messianic zombies? Just another list of stories on the long list of stories. It's not going to be "revealed" again.
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  13. Ass Napkin Ed

    Ass Napkin Ed DC - 19th & Benning Rd

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    Allah u Akbar

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  14. Put it in my Mouth

    Put it in my Mouth member

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    I'm dying at the thread title & @ass post

    TL;DR dc

    Moon god, moon rock, don't care it's pretty much the same, *wish* you tards would just stop telling us about your "god"
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  15. Ass Napkin Ed

    Ass Napkin Ed DC - 19th & Benning Rd

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    [​IMG]
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  16. Coup d'état

    Coup d'état Don't believe the hype

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    I think the earth does not spin, nor does the earth revolve around the sun. Nothing has indicated otherwise. With all due respect toward you. And I have not forgotten about our conversations. just a little gun shy at the moment. I hope you can understand that I may not get to what I promised in the winter and ask for your forgiveness.
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  17. Coup d'état

    Coup d'état Don't believe the hype

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    Much respect to you. Thanks for not jumping down my thorat and taking me seriously though you don't belive what I'm saying.

    I will tell you what will happen.

    Jeremiah 16:19

    O YAHUWAH, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit.

    This is what will go down after the second return. It will not be a pretty day.

    Gentiles are Europeans. I'm European.
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  18. reggie jax

    reggie jax Well-Known Member

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    there are plenty of ways to verify that the earth revolves around the sun, but i think i'm going to avoid that debate as i believe that no amount of scientific evidence will ever convince you of anything. so i was trying to appeal to your common sense instead. you wanna try answering the questions i posed you?
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  19. Coup d'état

    Coup d'état Don't believe the hype

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    Go ahead post up the science behind it...I'm all ears. If anything I'll just add some commentary not argue.

    I may answer the question you posed. But first do you forgive me that I may not get to our discussion this spring ?
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  20. Ass Napkin Ed

    Ass Napkin Ed DC - 19th & Benning Rd

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    Allah u Akbar!

    [​IMG]
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