Miracles and science...

Discussion in 'The Sanctuary' started by GaLaTeA, Mar 8, 2013.

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  1. GaLaTeA

    GaLaTeA GymArt

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    Let me make it easier by setting provisional, and for current operational needs an adequate definition of miracle:

    ...miracle is a violation of generally accepted and established natural laws, which happened only once, or at least cannot be repeated in comparable circumstances.

    As an example of natural laws I shall cover few basic; as the law of conservation of energy/matter, rotational/linear momentum.

    In order to collapse an entire building of science it would be sufficient if only one miracle could be proven. With it would collapse the foundation of materialistic worldview, and acceptable, and plausible would become theistic interpretations and deistic formation and organization/operation of the universe.

    Such miracles are contrary to the generally accepted and established natural laws would be making perpetuum mobile, reviving dead creatures, walking on water on a planet where the gravitational acceleration is 9.8 m/s^2, parthenogenesis (egg fertilization and birth without the participation of male sex cells) in primates, sudden and inexplicable ("magic") curing of terminally ill people without the participation of medicine, appearances of people and objects out of nowhere, to name a few...

    Natural laws apply for at least 13.7 x 10^9 years, and in all that time there is not a single miracle you could prove?
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  2. Sir Bustalot

    Sir Bustalot I am Jesus

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    are you sure that science might not just find a new variable and be able to work with the "miracle"?

    why does a miracle have to mean that it blows out all science? there are lots of things we dont know yet and maybe something like this would provide clues?
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  3. GaLaTeA

    GaLaTeA GymArt

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    Well, my point was that miracles are fiction of different religions to convince naive believers in the "omnipotence" of their gods.

    It amazes me about miracles and their "official verification" by the Catholic church for example, going on in the second decade of the XXI. century, whilst being in the immediate neighborhood of the LHC, expeditions to Mars, detecting the last secrets of the human genome, etc..

    And that's what's really the only remaining "miracle"...
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  4. Sir Bustalot

    Sir Bustalot I am Jesus

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    i think anything is possible, just not always likely.

    so youre not meaning miracles like a horrible car accident where both cars are mangled beyond recognition everyone dies, except the baby who remains unharmed in the backseat inches from death, but somehow lived?

    youre mean bs more like when statues of mary cry milk?
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  5. GaLaTeA

    GaLaTeA GymArt

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    ^:funny:....spent half the day going back & forth calculating force and/or negative acceleration for vehicles in a head on collision, alas not one with a baby surviving such a tragedy (although I'm sure even that could potentionally have a math/physics way of explaining it).

    Yeah,. more along the lines of bs being sold via book of unicorns and mary cry bloods.
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  6. ChromeDepot

    ChromeDepot Member

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    The Catholic Church is going to have to remove the three miracles requirement at some point. In this day and age the only sort of miracles they can posit are the "miraculous" cures and even they can/will be subject to scientific scrutiny. They're pining for the canonization of Mother Teresa but even the one "miracle" performed in her lifetime has been completely discarded.

    On a related note, I always found it funny how Christians as a whole believe that for the first few hundred years of human existence, God wasn't just omnipotent but also willingly interfered and mingled in human affairs (almost like the Gods of the Greeks). Striking down Sodom and Gomorrah, turning Lot's wife into salt, speaking to people...then one day he just decides to become a bystander. It's quite convenient.
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  7. lyricalpriest

    lyricalpriest Rap Games Dawson Creek

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    They'll say something like god is a mystery and thats enough stroke the herds of egomaniacs g spot I highly theyll become exstinct frok the human genome
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  8. Sir Bustalot

    Sir Bustalot I am Jesus

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    i saw a news story about this, it has happened. Everything we know of can be explained with mathematical equations. The unknown is just stuff we havent figured out the calculations for.

    as for your thread, i only think it applies to biblical miracles, Because miracles happen daily
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  9. antilluminati

    antilluminati Well-Known Member

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    Science: proof.
    Miracles: nothing.
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  10. GaLaTeA

    GaLaTeA GymArt

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    With progression of science more and more of these so called miracles will be explained, perhaps not in a decade, perhaps a few centuries from now...

    Since it's the sanct, it's tied to biblical miracles, yes. :)
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  11. Geedorah

    Geedorah King

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    Miracle is 1 out of million,so its not really a miracle.
    Do you call winning a lottery miracle?
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  12. antilluminati

    antilluminati Well-Known Member

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    Winning by odds is quite scientifical ^^
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  13. reggie jax

    reggie jax Well-Known Member

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    what makes an event a miracle if there's a natural explanation for it? it's just another event, no matter how statistically unlikely.

    this definition of miracle basically relies on the assumption of scientific naturalism. first you have to assume that any event which can be explained naturally has a natural origin, and then use that criteria to sift out the true miracles.

    you do highlight a flaw in this method in that there could be something that is technically inexplicable by current models and yet it adheres to principles that haven't yet been discovered. however, this is an example of something that appears to be a miracle but in reality is natural in origin, not something natural in origin which is also a miracle.
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  14. Sir Bustalot

    Sir Bustalot I am Jesus

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    i guess we just use the word too liberally

    when i think of miracles i think of things happening that had almost no likelyhood of happening based on the odds.....

    not shit like water turning to wine. Parting the seas with a hand gesture etc etc....
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  15. reggie jax

    reggie jax Well-Known Member

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    that's a colloquial definition of the word, but it doesn't have any metaphysical content. if you think about it, there's no way to distinguish which events are miracles if they don't violate the laws of science. even statistically unlikely events are bound to occur sometimes. to suggest that natural events are miraculous in nature undermines scientific naturalism... at that point we can't be sure that every single thing that ever occurs isn't god's intervention.
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  16. Sir Bustalot

    Sir Bustalot I am Jesus

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    im suggesting that the scale tipper that made the unlikely happen may have been divine intervention, im also suggesting god can be explained in a math equation we havent found yet.
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  17. reggie jax

    reggie jax Well-Known Member

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    but given the nature of statistics, unlikely things must occur sometimes. to suggest that something being unlikely suggests intervention is to expect that only likely things would occur without intervention, which isn't the case. anything else is just arbitrarily selecting certain events as miraculous based on a whim.

    it doesn't matter. the question here is does he intercede in his own design. you can say god can ultimately be explained scientifically and that the entire universe is an expression of his will, but then it doesn't follow that certain events are more miraculous than others.
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  18. Sir Bustalot

    Sir Bustalot I am Jesus

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    yeah youre right.

    well shit i dunno man.

    i just like to think science and god dont have to work against each other like everyone supposes nowadays....
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  19. AliceHouse

    AliceHouse The House Always Wins

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    "I've seen miracles all around me, stop and look around it's all astounding. Water, fire, air and dirt. Fucking magnets, how do they work?"

    By your definition of miracle, it would be hard to record them, wouldn't it? I agree with that definition though.

    There can be said that there is much anecdotal evidence. Time warps, for example. Things from the future showing up in the present, or people walking around finding themselves back in time hundreds of years ago. I might be spelling his name wrong as I'm recalling it from memory, but Kasper Hauser would be the best example. A young boy who literally popped out from thin air. In cases like these, I'm lead to believe it has more to do with our lack of understanding than anything miraculous. Lightning was a miracle once, a weapon of the GOD of GODS. It's since been undersood.

    Really you're not asking just miracles, are you? It's the paranormal. Which exists not a a miraculous series of events, but rather a jarring series of events that demonstrate human ignorance.
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  20. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    Can science ever explain..

    alternate dimensions, consciousness, collective consciousness, dream states, planes of paralell realities, psychic phenomenon(channelers, mediums spiritual phenomenon (like ghosts, hauntings, paranormal, spirits) souls, curses, magic, witchcraft, blessings, energy manipulation, Vibrational frequencies, alien phenomenon, ufo phenomenon.

    all these things exist both in and out of our reality. understanding them doesnt change that fact.
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