Michael Moore - Sicko

Discussion in 'IntroSpectrum' started by identity-X, Jun 17, 2007.

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  1. menaz

    menaz Avant Garde

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    Yes you do.

    ^ this is supporting the current ineffective school system.

    journal of Blacks in higher education...

    - whites from families with income of less than 10,000 had a mean SAT score of 933. this is 129 points higher than the national mean for all blacks

    - whites from families with incomes below 10,000 had a mean sat test score that was 61 points higher than blacks whose families had income of between 80,000 and 100,000.

    - blacks from famlies with incomes of more than 100,000 had a mean sat score that was 85 points below the mean score for whites from all income levels, 139 pionts below the mean score of whites from families at the same income level, and 10 below the average score of white students from families whose income was less than 10,000.

    The problem is not related to income, stop hoodwinking like KKK-democrats. Economic status can't close the achievement gap.

    We've doubled per-pupil spending, adjusting it for inflation, for the past 30 fucking years. Yet schools are not better.

    - Total U.S. K-12 spending increased from 4,505 per student in 1970 to 9,553 in 2002. Despite this incress in spending, Student performance on SAT scores fell from 1049 in 1970 to 1026 in 2003.

    In 2006, Milton friedman foundation sponsered a poll of floridians.
    They were asked how much they thought their state had spent
    per-pupil on public education.

    50% thought they spent no more than 4,000 per-pupil per-year.
    62% thought thought they no more than 6,000 per-pupil per-year.
    Only 5% got it correct, the state spends between 7,000 and 8,000 per-pupil per-year.

    Despite this incress in per-pupil spending, Floridians responded with what they thought the amount of state spending per-pupil should be, though two-thrids responded with an amount less than or at the current level of what is being spent. If money was the case We'd be running the best school systems in the United states.

    For example, The district of columbia, Where the enrollment is predominantly black, spends more per-pupil than any school district in the nation. Infact, in 2005 they spent 13,328 per-pupil, But it gets better, the national average that year was just under 10,000. Here is the kicker, its scores are among the wrost in the nation. (double take if you will) If money were the solution to this mess the problem would already be sloved.


    Let me address the problems needing fixed to reach the achievement Gap.

    - What we need is the highest quality of teachers possible regardless of skin color. Diversity policies serve no one and accomplish nothing. If we truely want to fix the achievement gap, we must vastly improve the teacher quality. Instead of shoving in underqualified Black and Latino teachers who can't pass a simple minimum skills test. This also goes for underqualified asians and whites as well.


    - school choice that empowers parents and students, not the educational bureacrats.

    - It is up to the individual to choose his or her own path that leads to hope and promise.

    - curricula that rejects fads and political correct distractions and instead embraces a back to basics approach. The core teaching principles based on testing: Science, reading, writting, arithmetic, english, and humanities. Truth is if you do not learn these skills, Guess what? You will not climb the ladder of economic and social opportunity in america.

    - Instilling and reinforcing soft skills... Skills including successful interaction, effective communication, creativity, analytical thinking, etc... not only should this last step be practiced at school it should be practice at home as well.

    - The liberals/NEA public school system is holding children back.

    - But the Primary explantion for this achievement gap in educational performance isn't genetic, no-no, it is cultural. Understand, the Culture of learning in black homes is often counter-productive to student achievement. Which explains why a child growing up in a affluent black home could still be lagging academically. For example: A individual, could be worth 500 million, but that alone won't guarantee his children will experience high educational achievement.

    In the 1960's who blocked the doorways while conservatives tried pushing desegregation legislation, the piece of shit Democrats thats who, Fuck'em.


    Did you even read the joint-canadian/American statistics fully?
    frist of all, 3,500 Canadians were compared to 5,200 U.S. residents in that study. The statistics were pretty much similar accept in a few areas. And to correct those few areas I've suggested Perfect-market for Lower-income recipients. Where we were fatter, they were terrible smokers.
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  2. menaz

    menaz Avant Garde

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    "what if it's a natural disaster?"

    Pay more attention to how you say it.


    Alzheimer's? This is where my Perfect-market comes in.


    Of course the act did. Wise up!


    Semantics. Federal meddled, so it had everything to do with it. Wise up!



    semantics, semantics, semantics!

    Meddled is meddled... a government act was created by federal to save insurance Companies profits. They aren't doing anything illegal therefore they do it. Now If you strip this act away, they can nolonger get away with it. I told you ten times stop arguing as if I'm with the current model. I'm not!

    What makes you think this federal runned health system (and that is what this is) won't gouge your Income tax making your living conditions hell... Sure people with lower incomes will have free-health-care, but you can not grantee in a place like america that care so freely-given won't be ten-times worse at the status quo level. You really going to trust OUR Government after FEMA? Federal is the reason your getting fucked. So to speak, sometimes you have to follow the chain of command. Wise-up!

    Correction I made you search for the source.

    Why Should I make it easy for you? Number 1.) I'm not publishing an article here.Number 2.) I've graduated college. Number 3.) Shut the fuck up, you're nobody. I'll do whatever I want... this is a conseversation not any of the above. So save the boring shit I already know, but refused to do, because I want to make you work for it.

    another one of your terrible s.arcastic jokes? Link isn't even working. Deflect!!!


    This is typical political pandering. Commies, want to make sure the market doesn't exist. The truth is your for total socialism. Don't mask your lame agenda with confoundedness if your gonna be for something be for it. I don't want the government doing hardly anything. The point is to get away from the current model and the current Model you want to take socialism into over-drive with. I said from the begining I'm against HMO'S, Removing them is a good place to start the desocialization of health-care.

    Trust me, you are leaning toward KKK-democrat.
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  3. T.Nitewulf

    T.Nitewulf SHUT THE FUCK UP

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    Insurance companys don't work. The only people they serve are the shareholders.
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  4. menaz

    menaz Avant Garde

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    I didn't lie at all. The statistics I looked at number-wise were completely different. However, I was right, doesn't change the fact we are moreso very satisfied with our quality of care. That is all I was saying.

    Hold up! 90% of Americans, 53% are very satisfied, while 37% are somewhat satisfied.

    53 percent of Americans and 44 percent of Canadians said they were very satisfied, while 37 percent of Americans and 43 percent of Canadians said they were somewhat satisfied

    Which in general would make it 90% satisfied
    Which in general would make Canada 87% satisfied


    Americans were more likely to be “very satisfied” with their health care services (both all services and doctor services) while Canadians were more likely to be “somewhat satisfied” (for all services) even when compared with insured Americans.

    http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/82M0022XIE/82M0022XIE2003001.htm

    that is the point I was making.
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  5. identity-X

    identity-X No Talent Assclown

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    tell me more about me [pus]

    no it's not. in the current system, per pupil expenditures are determined by a district's property taxes. I don't support this. not hard to follow

    Right...because schools in poorer schools, on average, perform better than schools in richer districts :pus:

    Any increase in per-pupil spending has not been the same across the board because local property taxes STILL determine the baseline number to be doubled.

    this assumes we are shoving "underqualified Black and Latino teachers into the system?

    this sounds like the "affirmative action is a quota system that privileges less qualified minorities over better qualified whites"..........which isn't true

    you control for income and any difference in achievement between race disappears.

    Canada isn't "the rest of the world". While it's health care systems is only ranked 7 places above us, there are 35 other countries that rank above us as well.

    http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

    37.............. *shakes head*
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  6. identity-X

    identity-X No Talent Assclown

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    STILL waiting for you to explain HOW it has anything to do with it.

    What sort of influence does the government CURRENTLY have on insurance companies when it comes to those companies decisions to provide or withhold care from their paying customers?

    ONE example.

    nobody is denying the initial "meddling"

    I'm asking how this influences insurance companies decisions TODAY.

    the act has no bearing on their current practices. now...if you can FINALLY show me how it does, please explain how removing it will decrease instances where insurance companies fuck over their customers. until then, i'll ask again...

    what makes you think they won't do the same in a completely free market...where it's also not illegal and where free-market politicians will also condone a hands off approach?

    our current government would never support universal health care anyway. it won't be put in place without a changing of the guard....replacing the current administration with one that doesn't expect congressional pay raises every year, one that doesn't support spending billions in tax dollars on a wars against brown people who posed no threat to us in the firs place, and one that will balance a budget so the taxes of future generations aren't going mostly toward paying down the debt.

    why? because that's how debate works.

    how incredibly 7th grade of you...

    my ass it isn't working. here, I'll copy and paste the important parts for you.

    Our team investigated some of the claims put forth in his film. We found that his numbers were mostly right, but his arguments could use a little more context. As we dug deep to uncover the numbers, we found surprisingly few inaccuracies in the film. In fact, most pundits or health-care experts we spoke to spent more time on errors of omission rather than disputing the actual claims in the film.

    Whether it's dollars spent, group coverage or Medicaid income cutoffs, health care goes hand in hand with numbers. Moore opens his film by giving these statistics, "Fifty million uninsured Americans ... 18,000 people die because they are uninsured.

    For the most part, that's true. The latest numbers from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention say 43.6 million, or about 15 percent of Americans, were uninsured in 2006. For the past five years, the overall count has fluctuated between 41 million and 44 million people. According to the Institute of Medicine, 18,000 people do die each year mainly because they are less likely to receive screening and preventive care for chronic diseases.

    Moore says that the U.S. spends more of its gross domestic product on health care than any other country.

    Again, that's true. The United States spends more than 15 percent of its GDP on health care -- no other nation even comes close to that number. France spends about 11 percent, and Canadians spend 10 percent.

    Like Moore, we also found that more money does not equal better care. Both the French and Canadian systems rank in the Top 10 of the world's best health-care systems, according to the World Health Organization. The United States comes in at No. 37. The rankings are based on general health of the population, access, patient satisfaction and how the care's paid for.​
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  7. identity-X

    identity-X No Talent Assclown

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    Bullshit. You claim you got your statistics from that the US/Canada Survey of health. I found that source and called you on the fact that your claim is not reflected in that study's findings and you're response is "nuh-uh, the numbers I saw where different"...

    ...meanwhile you cannot find any source to back up the original statistics. They don't fucking exist.

    - nobody denied that Americans were more satisfied...i simply asked for a source

    - it doesn't change the fact that the report is examining satisfaction of services themselves and NOT satisfaction with the process or the institutions providing said services

    - it doesn't change the fact that the statistics you provide do not match the statistics found in the report. NOWHERE does it say 80% of Canadians are unsatisfied...you overshot that one by about 70 percentage points. NOWHERE does it say 87% of Americans were "very satistfied"...you overshot that one by about 30 percentage points. Hell...the site above shows the same exact table I already posted...

    http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/82M0022XIE/2003001/tables/table6.htm

    ...guess what? The statistics you initially posted STILL aren't anywhere to be seen

    you lied. you got caught. man up



    even if it was an honest goof (NOBODY makes THAT big of a goof), maybe you should "Pay more attention to how you say it."
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  8. Superman70

    Superman70 edited

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    I loved the movie and wanted to participate...but the discussions and shit got too long. i'm not readin all that shit.

    Jesus Christ.

    I'll just say that I liked the part where he pointed out all the other gov. operated systems and how no one has beef with them. The libraries and firemen and crap.
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  9. identity-X

    identity-X No Talent Assclown

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    *wonders of menaz would support having police and fire departments privatized*
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  10. menaz

    menaz Avant Garde

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    Here's the problems with what you suggest. You just claimed your not for school property tax now your bitching about throwing more money at schools. where are you getting that extra money? It's one thing to say you want to cut school property tax it's quite another to say where that money is going to come from.

    Now Let me explain: According to the NAEP data from 1999 to 2000

    - The most affluent public school districts, the average per-pupil expenditure was 8,957. Yet in those districts with the highest levels of poverty, the average per pupil expenditure was 8, 503 difference of 453 a year per student. What's more, these numbers do not reflect the estimated 15 percent more in federal funds that lower income schools receive to administer programs such as head start. No, gaping disparity in test scores between minorities and white students can hardly be explained by a differnce this small. The truth is, if closing the achievement gap could be done by the swipe of the federal credit card, the problem would have been sloved long ago. However, we have a record of 30 years of spending, and lack of money just isn't the problem.

    Moreover, Regardless the public poor schools and the public rich schools are not performing peroid.

    I clearly showcased throwing more money at the problem does not
    correct the mess. It's doesn't matter if your black or white rich or poor.

    - whites from families with income of less than 10,000 had a mean SAT score of 933. this is 129 points higher than the national mean for all blacks

    - whites from families with incomes below 10,000 had a mean sat test score that was 61 points higher than blacks whose families had income of between 80,000 and 100,000.

    - blacks from famlies with incomes of more than 100,000 had a mean sat score that was 85 points below the mean score for whites from all income levels, 139 pionts below the mean score of whites from families at the same income level, and 10 below the average score of white students from families whose income was less than 10,000.

    The problem is not related to income, stop hoodwinking, Economic status can't close the achievement gap either.

    We've doubled per-pupil spending, adjusting it for inflation, for the past 30 fucking years. Yet schools are not better.

    Total U.S. K-12 spending increased from 4,505 per student in 1970 to 9,553 in 2002. Despite this incress in spending, Student performance on SAT scores fell from 1049 in 1970 to 1026 in 2003.

    It doesn't matter If you raise per-pupil spending across the board. See you do support throwing more money at a 30 year old problem created by KKK-democrats when I've clearly demostrated more money doesn't matter.

    The district of columbia, Where the enrollment is predominantly black, spends more per-pupil than any school district in the nation. Infact, in 2005 they spent 13,328 per-pupil, But it gets better, the national average that year was just under 10,000. Here is the kicker, its scores are among the wrost in the nation. (double take if you will) If money were the solution to this mess the problem would already be sloved.

    Why do you ignore the facts I provide? You do this all the time. You can't disprove the fact that for the last 30 years we've been throwing billions of dollars at all public schools and there not academically preforming. More money does not equal pedagogical excellence, if it did the district of columbia would have the best school system in the united states.

    Now here we have Chavis's charter school which spends less on pur-pupil than public schools with school property tax...

    A former public school principal named Dr. ben chavis, who now runs the American Indian public charter school in Oakland, his school spends thousands less per-student than Oakand's government-run schools spend. Chavis saves this money by having the kids help take care of the school. These are Poor kids/students who have better scores than all public school kids/students in the district... You know, those government owned schools which spend more money on thier students yet never see results. Infact, Since a Innovative thinker like Chavis took over, His school has went from being the worst in Oakland to being the best. Infact: All over america there are dynamic schools like chavis's that spend little, but out perform government schools.

    Furthermore, the proliferation of chater schools over the past five years has yielded dozens of ben chavis-like examples.

    If you can't see the facts, fuck it then I give up explaining it to you, stay cracking the democratic whip of oppression.


    That is exactly what the PC public school-system is doing, when it should be about the teacher's quality of teaching not his/her race. They all want to sit back and cry about bad education when the problem is they put in underqualified teachers based on race into these public school-systems to met the affirmative action quota when that isn't what matters. They Also put in Underqualified White teachers as well. Disgraceful!

    Further more... according to NEA'S 2004-05, states fewer than 50% of blacks pass teacher entrance exams, they want to make the tests even easier just to let them in to cover diversity.

    Yes, Your liberal solution to helping black and latino students over come Mt. Everest-sized academic deficiencies that separate them from their Asian and white classmates is to force these poor children to be taught by tachers who can't even pass a fundamental teacher competency exam. HOLY SHIT, JESUS-H-CHRIST, Lester Maddox would be proud.


    They don't deserve to teach just so the PC american public school system can make their affirmative action quota. That is not fair to the Miniority/nonminority students education. Infact, this affirmative action quota plan it is a return to the pre-brown vs board of education second-class school house. What they are doing is the reminiscent of taking blacks back to the southern plantation forcing them to only learn the limited skills that the slave master would allow. while motherfucking certification is not an automatic indicator of teacher quality, neither is the color of one's skin.

    Crack your Democratic whip, Mr. Slave master, but I'll never say tobie.
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  11. menaz

    menaz Avant Garde

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    Every simple, the Government's inital act. Which they are bound too and follow completely.


    How many times do I have to explain it before it becomes Ad nauseum?
    This whole thread is littered with the Perfect-market plan.

    The heuristic Perfect market corrects these problems when there is a sufficiently large number of participants, such that no individual can affect the market. It also Creates perfect competition, where everyone participant is fully informed, with perfect information, so everyone has equal access to the market, everyone acts in their rational self interest, the commodity in that market is homogeneous, and there are no transaction costs.

    As I've already stated it will cut medicine cost sufficantly and lower patient price sufficantly... whether its minor or major health survice unlike how the current state of affairs/modle are due to the Government's inital act which involves HMO's. Hell, even Kennedy could see back in his day that Bureaucracy plan had the potential to be a money making machine for private insurance interests and abuse to the public interest. Noone here is dening the current state of affairs.

    You have you're explaination again.

    Then why even argue for Universal health care if our government isn't going to implement it? Seems doltish of you and a waste of time for us both. that is what this is all over. Now, If you think taxes are bad now Just opt for Unversial-health-care, You'll really be pissed off.

    They Pose no threat? I agree Iraq was not a well thoughtout genius idea, hell, even George tent makes all that infromation perfectly clear in his new book, But to say those Terrorist over there our troops are fighting pose no threat here is quite a understatement. You forget, Al-qeada and some baathist who still hate us are over in Iraq, along with the mahdi Army. One only has to look at the world trade center or the new bombing at the scottish airport. Groundhogs day staring liberal Americans as bill Murry. Anyway, What will happen is Rudy Giuliani will get elected president, the Perfect-market plan will correct health-care costs for lower-income recipients, You can thank Democrats for the higher taxes, shitty school systems, Minimum wage increases, trying to cut troop funding, and still not getting our troops out of Iraq. However, they could get you to elect them to congress.

    No it really didn't work for me, But now I have read it. It confirms the statistics in the movie. I'll spare you by not attacking your CNN source. Moore throw in alot of propaganda though. I was just simply asking why you never logically thought on these Statistics for margine of error, Now i've got the answer. I've never thought Moores statistics were wrong, But I was questioning the margine of error. My argument as you know is I think the statistics he addresses can be correct with a Perfect-market instead.
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  12. menaz

    menaz Avant Garde

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    I didn't lie at all. The numbers I read were 86.9% & 83.2%.
    I might have typed it out too quickly and presented it strangely, or you might have interpreted what I said in a different light.

    I'll clear up the confusion...

    I did not mean 80% of canadians were unsatisfied what I was saying is 86.9% of Canadians are not "Very satisfied" like Americas are. Which we now know is a fact only the statistics were off. I agree my statistics I read were not correct... doesn't change the fact americans are VERY Satisfied moreso than Canadians who are somewhat satisfied.
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  13. XplicitMagik

    XplicitMagik New Member

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    are you guys excited bout this??
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  14. BlackSoultan Ad Infinitum

    BlackSoultan Ad Infinitum aka Billy Shoreview

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    I'mma neg rep identity x for arguing with a moron for four pages and not realizing it's a waste of time.

    But I'll refrain from doing so if he sends me the movie over aim: blksoultan
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  15. menaz

    menaz Avant Garde

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    ^

    You talk waaaay too much shit, someone really ought to beat your ass.
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  16. BlackSoultan Ad Infinitum

    BlackSoultan Ad Infinitum aka Billy Shoreview

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    Yeah, thing is rarely do grown people resort to that, but they can try if they want.

    What, you think all I do is "dance"? Word to the wise, never fight a b-boy.
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  17. identity-X

    identity-X No Talent Assclown

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    asshole... [teet]

    I'll drop a rapidshare link for ya



    menaz...if profit remains the only incentive for providing health care customers will continue to get fucked, be it in the current market or a "perfect" market. It's impossible for markets to be 100% competitive, it's impossible for customers to have 100% of information about a product and, therefore, completely "rational" choice in a market system does not exist. Did we not learn anything from the reign of Rockefeller?

    ...and you're STILL a fucking liar. No amount of backtracking or attempts at explaining away your idiocy will get anyone to believe otherwise.
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  18. menaz

    menaz Avant Garde

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    I'm not a lair and I wasn't wrong.

    But You're still, obese, annoying, fake, and doltish. You're pretty much a no life having retarded piece of shit to me.

    Only thing I learned is you don't have a clue what your talking about when it comes to the perfect market. By the way, taking what I said then twisting into "that won't work" is retarded. That is not an understanding of the Perfect-market. That is just you taking what I said then saying it won't work. It's more retarded than your parents are, which would explain your hereditary condition.

    I could lay some indepth literature on you about the perfect market, but your destine to be a michael moore follower,plus I doubt you'd read it anyway. If anyone would like the infromation just private message me.

    Did you not learn anything from Lenin? Yeah, I thought not. Anyway, Rockefeller wasn't conducting business in a perfect market, if he did he wouldn't have had a monopoly on oil. And I'm not following rockefeller, dumb shit. Just like your gonna say your not following lenin, dumb shit. So Ummm, yeah, don't bring up bullshit that has to do with my stance. And I won't bring up lenin & collectivisation.

    Some people will side with me. Some people will side with you.
    It's a very controverstal debate.

    As for this whole back and forth thing consisting of name calling.
    Yeah I'm not going to do it. If you want to talk shit you can
    drive to my house an do it if it's that serious.

    And you aren't driving to fight anyone. So don't be talking shit when you wouldn't have the nerve to say anything to my face. It's not my fault you're a emotional retard who blindly follows moore insertions.

    Run along now!
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  19. identity-X

    identity-X No Talent Assclown

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    you cited statistics that are found NOWHERE on the planet. you posted numbers to the tenth of a percentage point. it's not like you said "about half" or "about 3/4". you posted "83.9%".

    i have plenty of evidence to support my calling you a liar. you, on the other hand, respond with ad hominem attacks because you're frustrated that you got called out.

    how fucking mature...

    not gonna do it? there's nothing substantive in your entire post. you just spent 10 minutes of your day calling me names and e-flexing [funny]

    I'd call you a liar if you were standing right in front of me. It isn't "shit talking" if I can back it up.

    yer so tuff dood... [pus]
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  20. BlackSoultan Ad Infinitum

    BlackSoultan Ad Infinitum aka Billy Shoreview

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    Idunno, a wife and newborn baby and a job in higher education? Where do I sign up! Menaz, what the hell do you do? I love how people call others out for having no lives for no apparent reason. No one ever says how they have a life, or how the other person doesn't. That's the most empty ad hominem attack there is next to "yo mamma!".
    Do you know what would work? Or how what you said isn't a "perfect" market? And the "retarded parents" insult? Clear dodge from a substantive cross examination.
    I want it.
    I don't remember x saying he was. I know nothing about it whatsoever, so looking objectively, all he said was "have we learned nothing from rockefeller?" which could imply that X thought he was conducting business in a perfect market, or it could mean that rock was a detractor thereof, or it may mean that he tried to an failed at it. In other words, you assume he meant the former and used that to base a counteragrument because it is the easiest to pull apart. Typical.
    You're good at using big words to front like you know something. You do realize it's transparent tho, right?
    Not really. You're just comedy. If he was arguing with someone like...say...ghet. THEN it would be a debate.
    You are a homosexual.
    Dude, did you really pull the e-thug tactic in 2007??!?
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