i would conversely ask what good is it to live in denial of the temporal nature of our existence. i'm not saying i don't share your inclination to explore every nook and cranny to try to continue our own existence, and if that came in the form of creating new universes then that might potentially last forever. i'll also agree that if you can create other universes to live in, then you can use permancy as a metric for failure vs success. however, if it turns out that despite our best efforts we can't be immortal (neither as individuals nor as a civilization) then i would argue it is better to know that and to frame our understanding of existence with that realization in mind. so since this is a speculative solution to a universal problem, i have to ask you about the possibility that this solution simply isn't attainable for one reason or another. if that is the case, then would you have to relinquish the idea that the universe trends for jusitce, and does justice then lose its value? in other words, is the value that justice has to us entirely dependent on the assumption that we can actually continue to thrive forever? using the engulfment and engulfment avoidance model that you keep referencing, i would see this unwillingness to accept the fate of eventual nonexistence as an extreme manifestation of engulfment avoidance. essentially the laws of the universe dictate that our existence is temporary by its very nature, and yet here we are trying to assert our autonomy by bypassing the very system that made it possible. i have a question i'm curious about: would you want to live forever? if to exist is good, then naturally it's for the good. this sort of brings me back to the question i keep asking you though, is existence the end goal here? is justice merely a way that we sustain existence, or is there something more to it than that? i don't think you've really answered this yet. you have said that without justice we can't create technology which would render us impotent against our fate of eventual nonexistence, but even that only suggests that justice has value as a tool of survival, not that it has any intrinsic value on its own. are empathy, altruism and reciprocity higher ideals that transcend existence, or just effective tools for navigating it?