Discussion in 'MMA, Boxing & other Combat Sports' started by OurSin, Feb 6, 2011.
Bas Rutten's thoughts on the situation:
Bas Rutten: What planet does Seagal live on? - MMA News
Most aikido dojo in the USA will NOT allow upper level sparring contact. No punches,kicks,elbows,knees; nada.Their reasons are B.S. but basically they attract people who can't fight but who wanna fool themselves into thinking that the training methodology extant in the aikido dojos I've seen (except the one in Lakewood) would suffice in a confrontation.Again,you CAN TRAIN LIVE WITH WRISTLOCKS,it's just that most of these heads don't do so.Like I tell my clients and students in the Gym I own:"IT'S NOT JUST WHAT YOU KNOW,IT'S HOW YOU TRAIN."
Prior to this Lakewood aikido dojo,the only times I'd been able to spar using wristlocks was during stickfighting (hella HELLA effective when in close),moderate contact kendo,Greco wrestling with friends,teaching gun disarms, open mat time in my judo dojo (Ogden Judo School),training hapkido with Grandmaster Chu,and at the end of class rolling with my bjj friends.I incorporate lotsa wristlock oriented grappling in my own school.
As for the front kick? I've knocked out and/or stunned at least 50 people with it sparring...and easily could have quadrupled that number over the years in conflicts should I have decided to do so (most people have ZERO DEFENSE v quality hand and foot combos).Lotsa times we do isolated sparring in my Gym where your primary offensive technique or techniques will be limited to only one technique or a very specific few whereas your opponent can do whatever he likes.You can DEFEND however you like,but your OFFENSE WILL BE LIMITED TO A PREDETERMINED TECHNIQUE OR TECHNIQUES THAT YOUR OPPONENT KNOW YOU WILL THROW.It's like when I played football (I was the starting RB in high school) and we ran 30 running plays in a row.The defense knew we were running the ball; it was their job to stop us.It was our job to run it and get yards anyway.That's how I compel quality in isolated sparring situations too.
LMAO if rutten takes that approach im with it, i think bas is one of the smarter people involved in mma and knows his history and uses his creativity to excel certain aspects of training.. i watch almost every video ive seen of him, both fight and interview.
I respect much of what Bas says but I disagree with significant portions as well.
The idea that ANY taekwondo kick is useful in a real fight is hilarious to me....
They the running joke to anyone who's done anything hahaha their kicks are the sloppiest and least useful of any martial art....the fact Silva been doing it since 14 means absolutely nothing.....they dont train for power at all, its all speed and gymnastics.....they limited themselves so much they dont even practice essential things....when they kick they just drop the leg, easy to sweep etc etc
Im a black belt in Shotokan Karate.....and a front kick isnt just 'a front kick'....most use it as a push and not a snap, clearly Silva snapped this one rather than pushed it...MT use the push a lot.....
I can see Seagal teaching Silva to snap more and use his hips differently....I dont see the big deal?!?!?
Its annoying to me when MMA dudes think boxing, MT, Wrestling and BJJ are all thats needed and everything is hocus pocus or something.....the traditional martial arts although may not be that good for MMA in a pure sense, there are endless techniques to be learned that CAN be useful to the right fighter.....
Everyone following the same formula, and once a fighter realizes it, he'll find what everyone cant deal with....
MMA has itself become a restricting form....as I said only 4 maybe 5 disciplines are used these days....all the fighters fight the same even if its with different levels of a capabilities...its boring, its predictable...."hey the clinch works for this guy, lets all learn the same clinch" instead of figuring out how to avoid the clinch in the first place.....
I both agree and disagree with this post.
I hold quite a few black belts as well.I hold a 5th dan in Kenpo Karate and only need to learn the forms to hold a dan in Shotokan.I hold a 5th in tkd as well,and I assure you that tkd's kicks are very very combat functional.Again,it's not just what you know it's how you train.If you train your kicks functionallly? You get functional kicks.There ya are.You alluded to this truism later on in your post when you mentioned that:
"Everyone following the same formula, and once a fighter realizes it, he'll find what everyone cant deal with".
I've been throwing that kick--common place in tkd,kenpo and capoeira--for years.The trick lies in the stance,the feint,and the chambering.You're absolutely right,MT guys (I've studied MT for 12 years now) tend to use the push kick but the push isn't the correct English equivalent for the actual action of the kick.It's more of a THRUST kick. I first learned this specific execution in tang soo do,taekwondo and hwarangdo.I also teach a variant which combines the THRUST,SNAP,FEINT,and minimally telegraphed hip motion that results in a kick very similar to Anderson's...but we can throw ours off of a corkscrew motion too.Learned this Corkscrew Kick from Grandmaster Chu,then added more stuff to it.It's veeery deceptive.It even has a snake-like half-twist that makes it look like it can be a sidekick,too.We make contact with the ball or the heel of the foot.Sometimes the ball AND the heel of the foot sequentially.I'll put up some video on my Youtube Channel showing the kick.
Now I agree that MMA is still a child insofar as combat sports is concerned and as such it lacks the maturity,the refinement,the arsenal,the understanding,the polish,the breadth depth and developement of true martial arts.MMA is a SPORT that is comprised of ALL TRADITIONAL MARTIAL ARTS which have been MODIFIED FOR SPORT COMBAT.Muay Thai is a traditional martial sport.Jujitsu--Brazilian or Nihon--are both traditional in their roots.Wrestling is absolutely one of THE OLDEST martial arts.Lol.And boxing? Dates back to BEFORE the Greeks.Come on. Anyone denying the traditional martial roots of MMA is uninformed about this matter at best.
What has happened is--in the "tradition" of young whippersnappers everywhere of any epoch from before Icarus to now--MMA is tasting reckless success and in the process is developing a nouveau traditionalism that takes as its first bulwark the knee-jerk condemnation of anything prior to it.And like Icarus,those who wholeheartedly follow such narrow-minded intolerance will plummet from the heights that they may achieve.You see,the REAL legacy of "traditionalism" is INNOVATION and HUMAN DEVELOPMENT.This is what the so-called "MASTERS" sought when they CREATED their specific fighting and training methods.The "intolerant mindset" that stereotypically followed a particular art was the result of THE STUDENTS FOLLOWING AND HONORING THE TEACHER,it was NOT what THE TEACHER SOUGHT OR WANTED.This holds true from the very root of martial arts and martial masters--which is in Africa--to Bruce Lee's JKD today (you see the state of JKD now?) and tragically prior to his passing even Helio Gracie decried the state of bjj over the last 8-10 years,lamenting the fact that the 'self-defense' aspects of bjj are being totally lost and tossed aside in favor of sport tourney bjj which is NOTHING like the original.
So take the vastly vastly vastly vastly superior arsenal of so-called TMA (Traditional Martial Arts) and apply both of the critical elements that MMA re-introduced to martial arts (because this IS a reintroduction) and that is PERFORMANCE ORIENTED TRAINING and UNIVERSAL FUNCTIONALITY.Once you do that (these are 2 of t he 4 guiding principles of my Gym) you'll never be caught slippin and you'll always be innovating and enjoying your martial path.
Respect.*Bows,raises the right open palm in one of the many African warrior traditions*
Yeah, you have a point.
The thing is, there's a video where he takes credit for the entire gameplan and the kick itself. It just struck me as egocentric bullshit. Talking about Anderson sending him a letter asking to learn his deadly techniques and blah blah blah.
I bet he didn't do anything.
Well said...but I think only Anderson,his camp and Seagal know if Seagal is right to claim credit for the gameplan and the kick.In the wake of Anderson confirming Seagal's claims? I'm going with his words being true until some incontrovertible evidence to the contrary is presented.
Where is Master Diogenes Assahida? I was under the impression that Master Diogenes was doing the striking training for Anderson in this fight v Vitor.I read magazine articles to that effect...
Deth....good post bruv...
I havent trained in TKD...but everything I;ve seen of it looks sloppy....every gym I've come across looks like gymnastics rather than fighting.....they have no hands really, they dont have sweeps....their sparring (generally of course) is not effective....but thats just my observation, Im sure some kicks and techniques are useful.....
IN Karate you know there are two side kicks, ones a thrust kick the other a snap, one hits with the heel the other with the blade of the foot....same starting position, but different hip movement and extension....
thats what Im talking about here....the front kick wasnt just a normal karate front kick....he thrust until the last minute when he snapped, his hips hardly rotated, in fact there wasnt a big hip movement at all.....all those little details, while Steve may not have 'invented it' he may have taught Silva.....
I personally would like to see more Wing Chun incorporated into the clinch game......
The shame or I guess maybe the blessing...is that the 'sport' has rules and most traditional fighting systems (not ones learned for sport) are about ending a fight quickly, not by knocking them out, which is not the most effective way to end a fight....those moves arent taught to most people...it wasnt until I was a black belt that we were even allowed to practice certain moves coz our Sensei realized without the proper mental training kids would crushing throats and braking bones, and not to mention the 'accidents' that could happen in training such moves......
I like MMA...I just think its boring for the most part....everyones a copycat...Im sick of seeing a good wrestler with crap standup try and 'ground an pound' while a semi decent striker is scared of being taken down.....
I think Pushing Hands would work well in the clinch game, too.
It wouldnt be a win the fight type thing...but when someones trying to grab you it may help with evading and opening space, as well as getting some cheeky jabs in namean.....
I also think people 'bounce' around to much....good fighters can judge when your 'off the ground' and attack, and coz you are not on the ground, you can't move....
People move out of range to much rather than to the side, if you bounce out then try to bounce back in your opponent sees it, just like you do.....
Im not no expert at all...I just know when I watch fights for the most part I am not watching masters, Im watching dudes with granite chins and some good skills bash each others brains in lol only a few are truly graceful and fluid, with power and speed, excellent timing and such...even the bjj dudes you can tell the difference between those approaching mastership and those who arent......
I was taught four basic variants of the sidekick: the side snap kick,the side thrust kick,the crescent side kick (enter with a half-moon like motion and burst out with an explosive side kick) and the 'blade' or 'knife' kick which is the kick that uses the blade of the foot and was used most often back in the day when the Okinawan fishermen and African warriors would tie sharpened blades or sea shells to the sides of their feet and cut their opponents with these weapons when they launched the kick.Nowadays the side blade kick is used mainly to target the throat.I'm not a real fan of the kick,due to the ankle being placed at extra risk for injury from impact if you miss/are blocked/etc.But if you land it to the throat? No fun for the guy gettin kicked.
let me link you to several taekwondo practitioners who you may not think are sloppy:
YouTube - Michael Mcdonald HL
YouTube - TAEKWONDO ITF KOREAN CHAMPIONSHIP FINALS
YouTube - Raymond Daniels WCL Knockouts (Lil Wayne-Fireman)
YouTube - kwonkicker's Channel
YouTube - korean tae kwon do highlights
YouTube - Beijing Olympic Taekwondo 2008 - Official Highlights WTF ( Melhores Momentos )
Wing Chun in its elementary form IS incorporated into MMA,they just use it from the wrestling 1-on-1 or tie up base.That's all.And of course most WC and wrestling practitioners will sweare to high heaven that it's not the case unless confronted with video evidence (had this discussion mucho times already).
And yes the self-defense arts aren't geared toward winning matches or getting points but saving lives escaping harm and developing oneself more as a complete human being.
Pushing hands IS used in the Clinch game,they just use wrestling terminology and wrestling training practices.Like the WRESTLER'S SNAP DOWN.When you use Pushing Hands? You don't always have to push the HANDS.Push anything you like.Push the hips back to stop knees.Push the head down to drop your opponent.Push your opponents arms away while taking his back (arm drag).Etc.But the whole time? Hands are a-pushin and redirecting.
I meant in the sense that the clinch tends to be strength against strength, rather than giving way to the force to gain advantage.
Definitely agree there is lotsa force in the Clinch,but the more time you spend there the less brute force is used and more technique,conditioning,and timing become the order of the day.
man all this serious talk sapped the fun right out of this thread
In terms of traditional martial arts that aren't standard in mma, I think they can be effective if they are learned with live sparring. I think the biggest issue isn't whether they are effective, it's more about are they the most effective. I can use A sledge hammer to nail a picture into the wall, but it's not the most effective tool I could use. That's how I view many of the other traditional martial arts. From what I've seen, in a live fight or realistic sparring, karate (all forms), and tkd just look like sloppy kick boxing. Therefore, I think boxing and muay thai are probably the most effective striking arts. I think that in terms of grappling, the main grappling arts are jits, judo, hapkido, and aikido. I would say that all of them could be effective, but I personally think in a real life scenario, judo is probably the most effective because of the live sparring and the fact that I'm not all that interested in fighting on the ground like in bjj when I could just throw you and end the fight as you hit the pavement :dunno:
I accept that a lot of technique is used, but I feel that giving way and yielding to the force, causing your opponent to slip off balance would be very effective in the clinch.
i dont know much about TKD but isnt that cung le's martial art? his kicks are fuckin BRUTAL
Cung Le has Taekwondo black belt, but his main background is in San Shou.
Separate names with a comma.