Discussion in 'IntroSpectrum' started by UG MC, Jun 20, 2007.
ditto for you menaz
Yo, Keep that ditto bullshit between Demi Moore and Patrick Swayze.
I would like to read it. Make it a thread.
the remarks in this tread seem to be of people who understand very little about the history of israel and palestine. having been there, multiple times. i can clearly tell this.
if you are a jew in palestine, you will not get beaten, jeered at or killed. anyone who says so has obviously never been to ramallah, jenin, or anywhere else in palestine. the conflict is about the occupation and the attrocities of the idf against palestinians, sponsed by state terrorists of the united states. so they are the targets. as with any guerilla group, there will be innocent civilians killed. but no where near the scale of civilians killed at the hands of the invading and occupying army. the human rights atrocities in palestine are unbelievable.
palestine existed before israel and they own their land. thats it. no jewish and zionist propaganda can distort the truth.
When did Palestine become a Nation instead of a strip of land? When was the word "Palestinian" first used?
Israelites controlled Palestine (the land) back in 1200–539 BC.
Before that it was governed by the Canaanites, under the rule of the Pharaohs of Ancient Egypt. The Israelite Hebrews were Ancient Egyptian farmers. It is your task to prove that Palestinians controlled the land before Ancient Egypt. Only then will your statement be valid.
Palestine, the Nation (Palestinians) became a concept when?
There was no such thing 2,000 years ago in 70AD when Rome destroyed Jerusalem, burned the city, and forced the Jews to flee for their lives. Zionist propaganda is no different than Palestinian propaganda and no amount of emotional appeals can change that.
Next time, before you accuse everybody of being wrong and claim to be right, make sure that you are. Maybe it would be best if you stuck to Irish politics and avoided Middle East discussions.
Palestinians were known as Gentiles before Islam.
They were not organized into a nation and had no leaders.
Israel was a nation before Islam.
Israel was a nation before Rome controlled Palestine (the land).
An understanding of the meaning of words is going to be necessary for you to carry this conversation and apparently that is lacking. If we are speaking only in terms of this century, then you would be correct. Before 1948, Jerusalem was governed by a Muslim Mufti named Haj Amin al-Husseini who used to solute Adolph Hitler, with a smile on his face. He was a Palestinian. But, if you want to discuss history, as it truly was, then no . . . you are very wrong.
Here is your Islamic Mufti shaking Hitler's hand prior to 1948 when he agreed to train his soldiers to kill all the Jews in Palestine.
Here is your Islamic Mufti saluting Hitler's Nazis and becoming Hitler's partner in the elimination of the Jewish people.
Here are some of your Palestinian buddies throwing up their Nazi solutes.
This will not be happening again . . .
If you don't like it, tough shit.
Imagine one day that the Native Americans organized themselves and began to reproduce for several hundred years in various nations around the world and various nations around the world continuously tried to kill them off, then in one swift and genius move they managed to use the holocaust of a few of their people and reestablish themselves in America, as a nation. Suddenly America tries to fight them off and appeals to the world saying, "We were here first!"
You are taking the side of America in this allegory.
Understand that. It is a fact. And no amount of propaganda can or will change that. Israel will control the land from Ur to Cairo, rebuild the temple in Jerusalem and become the center of a unified world before this century is over. And, there is nothing that can be done to stop it. It was prophesied before Islam was even a religion.
If it is the truth that you seek, the land doesn't belong to either the Jews or the Muslims, the Israelites or the Palestinians. It belongs to the earth and the earth belongs to us all.
i used the term palestine as in what is referenced today. i know full well its origin, its history, and the current situation there. i'll stick to more than irish politics, thanks.
the genetics of todays palestinians, especially those in the line of peasants, were studied and tested using HLA and it was found that they are descendants of the canaanites. they mixed with egyptians, mesopotamians, anotalians, etc.
the hyksos governed canaan and egyptian rule only happened in the late bronze age. it was around then that other groups started to migrate there, most noticeably and importantly, were the philistines, the people of the sea. they attacked the coasts of syria and egypt, but were driven back and given permission to settle in southern canaan. they soon mixed with the canaanites and built kingdoms, which are recognized as the main cities in palestine to this day.
it was only after this period in the second half of the thirteenth century BC, the iron age, that moses led the children of israel towards the holy land. which then brought about the emergence of the kingdoms of david and solomon. this all coincided with the fall of the hyksos to the egyptians, where the children of israel resided at the time. moses leading them from persecution stating that god said the holy land was for them. but they wouldn't enter the holy land and waited till they grew in numbers. so joshua led them in eventually, talut was king until defeated by the philistines, then david became king.
the israeli jewish claim to palestine is based on god promising the children of israel the land, but if they looked back it would be ruined. they did look back and disbelieved in god's words. so that should rescind that claim. but the people who occupied and lived in canaan, or philistina, or palestine, whatever you want to call it, are the same ones who went through christianity, then the muslim conquest, the ottoman empire, the british empire, etc. all through history. just integrating and mixing with the new inhabitants. todays palestinians, are descendants of canaanites and philistines. how can you compare the jewish inhabitants during their short occupation of the holy land to native americans? in any sense, todays palestinians would be the native americans. much of the israeli's claim to palestine has little solid historical and archaeological proof. even the pottery and remains found in palestine predate the jewish advancement into palestine (or its other previous names).
the dominion of the children of israel had never, at any time, included the whole of palestine as it is known in its current boundaries. the period of their domination with complete independence was so short in comparison with the history of palestine. even when they had two kingdoms, they were subordinates most of the time to other powers stronger than they were. the self-rule that the jews enjoyed after they had captured babylonia was weak and restricted to the jerusalem area and its suburbs. after that, they enjoyed a limited independence during the maccabee era. after their being dispersed throughout the world, the relation of the jews with palestine had discontinued, without interruption, for 1900 years.
i have read countless books, writings from scholars, historical documents, etc from both sides of the conflict for years. i am interested in all conflicts of the world, not just this one. i can be accused of being biased, but i dont see how. i am neither jewish nor muslim, israeli nor palestinian. i have no ties to the region other than my interest in history. and from my interpretation i have come to the aforementioned conclusion. jewish claim to palestine is very thin at best. the amount of propaganda i have read is unbelievable. yes i have read propaganda from arab sides, but through it all, facts are there.
UMMMM, you're lying and your wrong.
HLA Evidence claims: "Palestinians are genetically very close to Jews and other Middle East populations. Archaeologic and genetic data support that both Jews and Palestinians came from the ancient Canaanites, who extensively mixed with Egyptians, Mesopotamian, and Anatolian peoples in ancient times. Thus, Palestinian-Jewish rivalry is based in cultural and religious, but not in genetic, differences."
I question that stalemate because Caanites died out long ago. And their main language was Hebrew. Not to mention, They used a single genetic marker, HLA DRB1, for their analysis to construct a genealogical tree to map out 28 populations from the Middle East, Europe, Africa, and Japan.
Using results from the analysis of a single marker, particularly one likely to have undergone selection, for the purpose of reconstructing genealogies is unreliable and unacceptable practice in population genetics. So We're both most likely looking at junk science here.
If we go by the bible you'll reach this conclusion...
The Canaanites are historically acknowledged as the first inhabitants of the Land of Israel, before the Hebrews settled there. Indeed, the correct geographic name of the Land of Israel is Canaan, not "Palestine" They were composed by different tribes, that may be distinguished in two main groups: the Northern or Coastland Canaanites and the Southern or Mountain Canaanites. The Northern Canaanites settled along the coast of the Mediterranean Sea from the southeastern side of the Gulf of Iskenderun to the proximities of the Gulf of Hayfa. Their main cities were Tzur, Tzidon, Gebal (Byblos), Arvad, Ugarit, and are better known in history by their Greek name Phoenicians, but they called themselves "Kana'ana" or "Kinachnu". They did not found any unified kingdom but were organized in self-ruled cities, and were not a warlike people but rather traders, seafarers and builders. Their language was adopted from their Semitic neighbours, the Arameans, and was closely related to Hebrew (not to Arabic!). Phoenicians and Israelites did not need interpreters to understand each other. They followed the same destiny of ancient Israel and fell under Assyrian rule, then Babylonian, Persian, Macedonian, Seleucian and Roman. Throughout their history the Phoenicians intermarried with different peoples that dwelled in their land, mainly Greeks and Armenians. During the Islamic expansion they were Arabized, yet, never completely assimilated, and their present-day state is Lebanon, erroneously regarded as an "Arab" country, a label that the Lebanese people reject. Unlike the Arab states, Lebanon has a western democratic-style official name, "Lebanese Republic", without the essential adjective "Arab" that is required in the denominations of every Arab state. The only mention of the term Arabic in the Lebanese constitution refers to the official language of the state, which does not mean that the Lebanese people are Arabs in the same way as the official language of the United States is English but this does not qualify the Americans as British. The so-called Palestinians are not Lebanese (although some of them came from Syrian-occupied Lebanon), therefore they are not Phoenicians (Northern Canaanites). Actually, in Lebanon they are "refugees" and are not identified with the local people. The Southern Canaanites dwelled in the mountain region from the Golan southwards, on both sides of the Yarden and along the Mediterranean coast from the Gulf of Hayfa to Yafo, that is the Biblical Canaan. They were composed by various tribes of different stocks: besides the proper Canaanites (Phoenicians), there were Amorites, Hittites and Hurrian peoples like the Yevusites, Hivvites and Horites, all of them assimilated into the Aramean-Canaanite context. They never constituted an unified, organized state but kept within the tribal alliance system. When the first Hebrews arrived in Canaan they shared the land but did not intermarry, as it was an interdiction for Avraham's family to marry the Canaanites. Nevertheless, eleven of the twelve sons of Yakov married Canaanite women (the other son married an Egyptian), and since then, the Tribes of Israel began to mix with the local inhabitants. After the Exodus, when the Israelites conquered the Land, there were some wars between them and the Canaanites throughout the period of the Sofetim (Judges), and were definitively subdued by King David. By that time, most Canaanites were married to Israelites, others voluntarily accepted Torah becoming Israelites, others joined up in the Israelite or Judahite army. Actually, the Canaanites are seldom mentioned during the Kings' period, usually in reference to their heathen customs introduced among the Israelites, but no longer as a distinguishable people, because they were indeed assimilated into the Israelite nation. When the Assyrians overran the Kingdom of Israel, they did not leave any Canaanite aside, as they had all become Israelites by that time. The same happened when the Babylonians overthrew the Kingdom of Judah. Therefore, the only people that can trace back a lineage to the ancient Canaanites are the Jews, not the Palestinians, as Canaanites did not exist any longer after the 8th century b.c.e. and they were not annihilated but assimilated into the Jewish people. The Palestinians cannot claim any descent from the ancient Canaanites - if so, why not to pretend also the Syrian "occupied territories", namely, Lebanon? Why do they not speak the language of the ancient Canaanites, that was Hebrew? Because they are NOT Canaanites at all!"
Understand, By the time Solomon came to power the entire area was united under one name, Judah. After Solomon's death it was divided into two areas, Judah and Israel. Palstinians do not even claim they are palstinians. Shoebat former Plo: “Why is it that on June 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian?”
The place known as Palestine did not even exist. The romans in 70AD defeated the jewish uprising and changed the name from Judah to Philistina in the year 135. No mention whatsoever has ever been made of Palestinians or of Palestine until the British administration of 1917 took the name Palestina and applied it to them.
British = the modern romans!
You are a propagandist... No doubt about it.
You would make a great fiction writer.
Israel's existence in Jerusalem isn't up for debate. It is a reality that Palestinians are going to have to accept. No amount of liberal whining is going to change that.
From a religious view, Hashem gave that land to the Israelites when they fled Egypt and Joshua led them into the land. Yes, they were driven out of that land for straying from the path . . . but, what you forget is that it was prophesied before they were driven out that they would be driven out and that they would be brought back to it again by the Messiah, that Messiah would reestablish Jerusalem as a Holy City and as unite the world in peace with Jerusalem being the spiritual centre of the world.. That is why Jews do not accept Jesus as the Messiah because you can't bring people back together if they are not dispersed and the Jews were not dispersed while Jesus was living.
From a historical view, land belongs to whoever is strong enough to take it. Palestinians are neither strong enough nor are they organized enough to take it, govern it or even defend themselves. That is how the world has worked for thousands of years and until the world does away with individual nations and peace and unity are established, that is how it will be. It may be pleasant to live in the fantasy world of your ideals, but it isn't reality.
This is simply not true. Here is a map during the rule of the 12 Tribes, all of which belonged to Israel.
Here is a map of the Kingdom of Israel under King David and King Solomon.
Harsh, but true.
There's always gonna winners and loser.. It seems that the Palestinians would be better off if they stopped fighting each other and Isreal.. Everybody seems to have a zero-sum mentality
The Palestinians never really had a nation(in modern times) and I don't think that their leaders, religious or otherwise, have gone back thousands of years to prove that Isreal took 'thier land'.. and therefore they have a right of return
The problem here is the refugees in Lebanon( who have a second-class citizen status) and eslewhere, Islamic extremeists, and Isreal's overhwhelming use of force.. which is supported almost unquestionbly by Western allies and members of the Jewish community living outside of Isreal
menaz types word for word from a anti palestinian site, where the title of the document you copied was "Palestinian Myths".
and straw man gets his maps from pro jewish sites.
and i'm the propagandist? lol
no point in even trying to say anymore on this topic. i'll go read pro jewish sites now and have your replies ahead of time.
haha @ Pro-Jewish sites
Yes, any site that shows a map of Israel under the 12 Tribes, King David and King Solomon MUST be Pro-Jewish.
I got the pictures from Google. I didn't even check where they had come from.
Maybe next time I'll find a Muslim site and use their pictures?
Way to avoid what I said and sidestep your way out of the conversation by accusing me of being a propagandist, becoming the very thing you are accusing me of. If you go to: www.imninalu.net (the site both maps came from) and read the site, you will see that nothing I said is discussed on that site. But, you didn't bother to do that, did you? Why would you? You're not interested in reality, you are only interested in what you have already formulated and established in your head as reality.
So stick with your delusions.
Israel's overwhelming use of force is a necessary evil. When you have to defend yourself from people who deny the Holocaust, march as Nazis and threaten to wipe Israel (and Jews) off the face of the Earth, teaching their children through Arab/Islamic Mickey Mouse television programs that they should kill Jews for Allah, passivity is not a virtue.
For thousands of years Jews have been trampled on by the world.
When they fight back and defend themselves, they're the bad guy?
Meditate on that lack of logic for a while.
(This isn't an insult at you, just at those who say Israel should not use such force)
We meant it when we said "Never again!"
Isreals policy to use overwheming force is not only immoral, it's also not effective. All it does it escalate things, and lead to a never ending cycle of retaliation...
wtf.. now your getting irrational.. what does the thousands of years before you, me, or anybody on this planet was born have to do w/ the current middle east debacle?.. Lots of people have it rough.. it's part of life unfortunately...
W/ that attitude, and the attitude of the palestinians, there will never be peace...
Morality is relative to the society (or religion) that creates it. Morality is an unstable illusion that changes form with the people. Twenty years ago homosexuality was immoral, today it is immoral to say that homosexuality is immoral.
It has everything to do with it. You cannot divorce the present from the past or the future from the present.
Okay, so what is the conflict?
Palestinians have it rough right now . . . according to you that is part of life.
Palestinians support groups that want to wipe Israel off the map (along with all Jews, keep in mind) and you are saying that Israelis should trust Palestinians (who have been blowing up their buses and weddings since 1948) and embrace them as neighbors? Jews have tried living with people who hate them for 2,000 years. Now Israel is establishing itself and pushing the people who attack Israel out of their vicinity and you are saying, "Israel needs to chill!" Israel has tried peace with the Palestinians. Islamic Extremists and Political Parasites from the Palestinian side won't allow peace. Everytime Islamic leaders sign treaties with the Israeli people they turn right around and send extremists to blow shit up the same day so that Israel will retaliate and they can play victim.
We can discuss this a few ways:
1. My view - I don't believe in nations and think the entire concept of individual countries, in a world that belongs to us all, is absolutely absurd. How evolved are we if we still give our loyalties to divisions? How can birds be free to fly from Canada to Mexico and human beings (who are greater than the birds) be required to ask for permission from governments created by men, just to travel across invisible lines created by murderers, in the name of a God they don't even understand? Nationalism, Racism, Patriotism, Religiousism, Sexism and any other Ism has got to go. This is where I personally stand: We all live on one planet and the land in America is connected to the same earth as the land in Iraq. The planet cannot be divided up into portions and distributed to races. The age of empires is over. It's time for one world now, free from independent nations. It's time for one law now, in which human beings are truly free to live their lives however they choose and receive the benefits of the pure life or the punishment of an impure life, accordingly. It's time for justice and equality, love and compassion, unity and peace.
2. Palestinian view - Israel has got to go.
3. Israeli view - Palestine has got to go.
Do not make the mistake of thinking that I am being irrational. My every response is rational. I have no attachment to any division and my approach to life is entirely rational, fueled by reason and understanding. When I say that "We" meant it when "we" said "Never again!" . . . that's just how it is.
Jews will never again be trampled on by the rest of the world and the peace that you want, the world that human beings are waiting for will only come about through the Israelites (not Israel the nation or the zionist party). It has already been decided and nothing can change that. Many others may try to establish peace, but they will fail. Modern Israelis (Zionists) are trying to establish themselves and their false worship and they will fail, but the success will be born out of their failure. Their failure is a seed and that seed will bloom into the rose that the world is waiting for, so it must happen. Palestine cannot win. It has already been decided. It was decided before the first man shed another man's blood how peace would be established. Nothing can change it. The pattern is there, the end of the times is there, all you can do is see the pattern and accept it.
You think you are being rational, yet your rational is based off of concepts that have been conditioned into a you that was created by other people. Your rationality is illusory. It is false, a dream within a dream. So, no . . . I am not rational according to your false perception. But, that is only because you cannot see the pattern until you cease to be you and you become true and detach yourself from the delusions of man. When you become authentic and cease to identify with the emotions of a false identity, then you will understand what has been said to you in this post.
It is not the attitude of Palestinians or Israelis that is keeping humanity from peace. It is the concept of Palestinians and Israelis that is keeping humanity from peace.
I disagree that ALL morality is relative.. and the people that are commiting immoral acts are probably the first ones to convince you it is...
Yeah, your absolutely right, the Jews are the only people who live w/ people that hate then consistently.. they alone have been wronged
look, I'm not saying its all Isreals fault, I know the Palestinians are too blame as well.. but they have been wronged too.... they live as second class citizens now, and their constantly under siege by the Jews/west
Ok.... you sort of changed the subject... but anyway.. You keep saying your 'rational' and have no 'attachments to any divisions'... but then why are you speaking for the Jewish people? And using Jewish slogans? It seems to me that your contradicting yourself, constantly.. and that your very much in the Zionist camp
I think you assume too much... but I get it, you've recieved a revelation that I can only dream about recieving...
Your a prophet
Separate names with a comma.