Is Music a cultural expression? Can it be manipulated? If so to what end?

Discussion in 'IntroSpectrum' started by Sodium, Aug 10, 2007.

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  1. Sodium

    Sodium I Get Computers Putin'

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    Music to my mind isnt something that can come from nothing and actually change anything in a social or cultural sense. To be of any effectiveness it has to first latch onto some kind of implicit underlying disposition in the people. Every movement of music has been a result of that. From the introduction of jazz, 60's rock, disco, punk rock, 80's hair metal, 90's grunge, and all the differing mutations of hip hop. All of them were extensions of the underlying rumblings, feelings, emotions, desires and values of the people during those times. Ultimately I believe that music is the manifestation of the people's idea of beauty, or, what they consider to be beauty. the music they listen to serving as the ultimate manifestation of that ideal beauty. This theme remains constant in all conceivable forms of music. From the ideal beauty of power and wealth in rap music or to the ideal beauty of wildness and danger in heavy metal.

    Thus music can be defined less in terms of sounds and words but moreso in the sense that it is a lifestyle. To that extent those who make music are sellers of lifestyles and should regard themselves not as people who just make music but people who sell ways of life.

    To this person, what is most critical to his success is that he acurately diagnoses what the dispositions in the people are. If he can't do this then his music will fail to be accepted and thus will be unable to shape culture (future dispositions) in any way. He also won't make any money. So this begs the question; What, or more acturately, where are the people now and where are they going. More to the point, what is their idea of beauty and how can it be packaged and sold back to them?

    That is a very tricky question.

    To my mind, I think that we are entering the dawn of a society where technology will become tightly interwoven into the very core of it. Life in this society will be accented by the luxuries of this technology; iphones and HD tv's being only the start of it. Life thus will become defined as the attainment of these luxuries and this I think will be the central point of culture. In essence, an era of narcissism. I believe that we are currently in the infancy of this era already.

    If this is true, then music must accordingly follow in this direction. It must be conducive to the end that it makes the listener feel narcissitic and luxurious: a drug-like high.


    I know some of you kniakkas on here make music. I want to hear your thoughts on music. I want to know how you plan to become powerful in the business and your strategy.
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  2. Machilles

    Machilles If you want a God

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    Well-put. It's weird how people find a friend in music, but that's the key to being a success.

    I'm not much for catering to others. If success comes my way, it'll be due to the fact that others relate to my experiences; anything else doesn't live past billboard status.
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  3. Sodium

    Sodium I Get Computers Putin'

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    ^^thats how kniakkos find themxselves 40 years old working at radioshack answering questions about remote controls 20 times a day
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  4. Machilles

    Machilles If you want a God

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    So you're suggesting that Vanilla Ice leads a more fruitful life than a Radioshack manager who plays small clubs at night? I disagree, and so does Vanilla Ice.
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  5. Yahunyahti

    Yahunyahti New Member

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    Music reflects the mindframe of a society. If the society is materialistic, the music will be materialistic, if the society is spiritual then the music will be spiritual.
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  6. Murder Ink

    Murder Ink Jigsaw

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    how will i adapt to the changing society?
    I won't, i'll make music however the hell i want, lol.
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  7. menaz

    menaz Avant Garde

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    The music industry is dead. Record label wise espeically.

    Before illegal downloads you could have sold 3 million albums.
    Now you're lucky if you sell 100 thousand albums.

    As for Music reflecting the times. Pretty true meme, espeically the 60's.
    However, there is more than one genre of music out there today.
    Nothing majority wise really reflects the times today except dirty south and club music. All the poilitical opinions are underground not to main stream like in the 60's.

    Honestly, I have no idea what the radio stations are playing.
    However, I can speculate their noise waves aren't good, ya dig?

    The way I make music is very simple I'm just me. Whatever I think up or feel like writing I do. I want to get into Ghet's operation though and be the white man who's behind the scenes making huge bank off every horrible rapper in the game.
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  8. Yahunyahti

    Yahunyahti New Member

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    That's just it, music is a mirror that reflects us back at ourselves. That is the purpose of all arts, to reflect life. Intelligence has been suppressed and so the "so called" deep music is "underground" and is being "ignored" and "suppressed" by the mainstream. Materialism is being praised and so materialistic music is in the mainstream, being fed to the people and being upheld.
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  9. menaz

    menaz Avant Garde

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    You should have stopped right here the point was made perfectly.
    Let me help you understand the HUGE point you've unknowingly
    figured out.

    The anti-materialism in the 60's didn't change human beings they were still dependant on materialism. A culture can say one principle, but they know that can't work realistically. So anti-materialism of the 60's was not realistic. And the utopia of the 60's crashed hard by the 80's.

    It would be like a shaman talking anti-materailism only shrouded in materialism and surrounded in a room of materialism. Contradiction.

    What I want you to try and understand is Materialism is apart of us.
    It's how we've expanded our culture throughout the centries to better our society, provide for it, and to protect it. Even you get enjoyment out of the computre, music, dvd players, video games, movies.


    Materialism is something poor Africans needed.
    Materialism is something egytains needed.
    Materialism is something romans needed.

    Let me tell you about these three fact based material reflections of us.

    In africa, materialism such as "lipstick" is highly looked upon within the culture. Poor African women will neglect food, water, even their own childrens needs, to obtain it. It showcases a certain dominance over women who don't wear it. Not only that. They are poor, yet they rather have this prestige advantage. Materialism is apart of us.

    In Egypt, Materialism such as Gold, Gems, and certain headdresses where held highly esteemed among the culture. They wore Gold, embraced themselves in gems, and wore different headdresses of promance. Some even had Stone tombs which were refered to as pyramides which they were then buried in along with their other materials.

    In Rome, the color of a dress was all the craze among the ladies. A purple dress was deemed highly esteemed more fashionable than a red one. The best jewels were highly esteemed among both classes. The rich and poor cherished materialism. gander at the colosseum, Leaning Tower of Pisa, famous works of art. All apart of the material us.

    You hit on the point but failed to realize materialism has always been praised among us, even when we try to disillusion ourselves against partaking in it.

    The only reason I don't listen to Main stream rap is because none of them can rap. Besides Jay-z, Nas, Kanye west, there is noone. I also don't enjoy party music or fake gangstas.


    Nelly said Air-force ones, I thank him for that, not only is it a cheap shoe, but it's comfortable and the orthopedic support was much needed.
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  10. Murder Ink

    Murder Ink Jigsaw

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    truth.
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  11. Yahunyahti

    Yahunyahti New Member

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    [funny]

    The pretentiousness of this post is through the roof.

    1. I know that materialism is very necessary. I have never said that it isn't. However, materialism is a means to an end. It is a mirror that is necessary only to reflect back that it is not the totality or the truth. For instance, a child is innocent and pure . . . but, they are ignorant of their purity. They cannot be conscious or aware of their innocence, they are ignorant of it. They are completely in it, but they can never fully experience it because there is no ego/identity to experience. So, that identity is created, that ego must be manufactured. Names are the foundation and then more and more "information" is given to the child. They are divided more and more and more ("A necessary evil", as Carl Jung put it). Soon the child has moved from ignorant and pure to ignorant and impure. They are still ignorant because they have no consciousness, but they are impure now because they are no longer lost in the unity of the universe. They are no longer in that allegorical "Garden of Eden" . . . they have eaten from the tree of knowledge between good and and evil (dualism). They have become a thing and no longer feel connected to the totality. They see themselves as separate. This is necessary, of course. However, there is a next stage in this progress and that next stage is that the child will eventually become a man or a woman and they will realize that something is wrong, something is not right, they are divided, they are not complete . . . and so they begin philosophizing, they get into religions or sciences or they seek some other means to figure out why they feel wrong. Something is off, something is simply not right. They have lost a purity and they can feel it in their subconscious. The subconscious remembers the purity of innocence (of childhood) and that is why so many enjoy childhood memories. However, that subconscious (beneath the surface awareness) is covered over by an unconsciousness. The last stage is the final and fourth stage. It is a process of becoming once again connected to the purity, to the totality, to the innocence . . . only this time with awareness. That is life. Moving from infancy (ignorant purity) into childhood (ignorant impurity) and then into adulthood (conscious impurity) and finally back to enlightenment (conscious purity). We either move from ignorant purity to conscious purity, or we stop and make ourselves a home along the way (and that is the true "hell" . . . that in between impurity (whether ignorantly or consciously impure, it is the same). It is a separation from God (the totality, the singular consciousness). But, to get there, one needs that dualism mirror. To get there the matter is necessary. In a spiritual or religious sense one would say, "God (the universal singular consciousness) is using energy to create matter (the material universe) and the God within the matter is experiencing the rediscovery of the God in all other matter.

    This is why the Hebrew (not Jewish) name for God (YHYH) means "I will be what I will be." God was perceived in a process of becoming. Not a finished thing, but a process. One could even go further and say, "God is the evolution of human consciousness."

    2. Materialism is a tool, but one does not look at a hammer and say, "This is my house." Only a fool would do that. You use the hammer to build the home. The hammer isn't the home. You use materialism to experience the immaterial. You use the physical to reflect the metaphysical. That is how all religions came into being. Human beings were experiencing nature and so they used poetic personification (through story telling) and gave personalities to nature, forms to nature and later other artists created the imagery off of those stories and those images gave an inner experience to the nature and suddenly the people felt connected to nature. Religion is entertainment . . . you of all people know that. But, religion is also a necessary art. It helps the simple people see the unity of all things. Without it, they would be trapped in their dualism alone. Yes, we are individuals, but we are also one. We are both, one and many. Should we accept only a part of our identity and reject the rest? There is nothing wrong with religions and there is nothing wrong with the sciences. They fit together, if one can see the truth and the totality behind it.

    Menaz, don't assume you know what I do or don't know. I have only given you fragments and have intertwined them with delusions. It is not my intent to impart the truth on you. The truth can only be discovered, it cannot be given. I'm not trying to give it to you, I'm simply pointing you down the path. You're walking the path now, so keep walking it. But, don't make the mistake of thinking that you're guiding me. I have found the garden. I'm just back on the path because it is fun to walk the trails.
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  12. Yahunyahti

    Yahunyahti New Member

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    You know, if I say something in a way that causes you to experience a revelation or a realization of sorts, it isn't going to hurt you to simply experience it and say, "Wow, I never really thought of it like that." I'm not going to throw it in your face if you will admit it. My only beef with you is that you absolutely refuse to acknowledge when you have learned something new and you try to pretend that you have always known it.
    But, that isn't enough . . . you try to convince the person who showed you this truth that they are learning it from you or that they do not understand it. That is madness. Stop tormenting yourself.
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  13. Menaz,

    I've stepped it up a notch.

    http://www.ghetmedia.com/VerbatimIntro4.mp3

    I'll give you ONE guess who that voice actor is... and who wrote the script... ;D

    Oh yes, cultural intimacies can be imitated and expressed for the gains of others that were not part of the intended audience.
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  14. M.Maestro

    M.Maestro Ghost

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    I'm bout to revolutionize music.
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  15. BlackSoultan Ad Infinitum

    BlackSoultan Ad Infinitum aka Billy Shoreview

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    ^^I'm actually curious as to how you mean.
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  16. BlackSoultan Ad Infinitum

    BlackSoultan Ad Infinitum aka Billy Shoreview

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    Personally, I know absolutely no one who can do what ghet does as well as he does, but his behavior at times leaves me to lack faith in him businesswise because of his offensive behaivor (dropping the N word in the studio, etc.)

    You are as offensive and I highly doubt you even have a modicum of his redeeming qualities of meticulousness, training and sound quality. Ghet can tell ya: you want to make money as a rap music recording engineer, you don't need to be remotely as good as he is. In fact, soleternity, who is a producer/rapper and NOT a trained mixing engineer gets more work and multiples more money than Ghet probably ever will with A list artists, grammy award winners, and possibly some of your favorite rappers. Sol is in the studio with Ashanti and Ne-Yo, Ghet's in the studio with me. Ghet's rep is making it hard for me to drum up business for him because cats I know have gone back to the rest of the pack and have recounted that (a) ghet's good, but (b) he's still Ghet. It falls on me because people look at me like "why do you work with dude??!"...[dunno]

    The difference?

    Sol knows how to be amenable to business, even if he can't mix as well per se.

    And YOU sir, ar no Ghetalion OR Soleternity.

    As for if this is a cultural expression, I would follow what Yehunati said in his first reply a thousand percent. It reflects the society it comes out of. If that society is commercial, the music will be commercial. If the society is spiritual, the music will be too. Mos Def nailed it with the intro to Black on Both Sides when he said something very similar.

    Now, some may argue that there are different genres of music, so this cannot be. However, this country is made up of a ton of subcultures and counter cultures. Out of those sub and counter cultures come different genres of music and different tones therein.

    As for labels, they are not dead. They're a little slow catching on to how to create new revenue streams as the technology changes, but they are not dead. Record sales are down. Single sales due to companies like napster, itunes, snocap and what have you are WAY UP.

    Moreover, the numbers showing a dip in sales are compounded by more than illegal downloading. The research shows that record sales (and not movie ticket or concert ticket sales) fluctuate with the economy. Napster revolutionized illegal downloads in 99 and the .com bubble burst shortly thereafter, followed by the Bush presidency, 9/11 and an unnecessary war fought during overwhelming tax cuts and supply side economics. That is to say that our economy has sucked ass since th days of Eminem platinum sales.

    Then, in the middle of this decade, itunes came to the fore in the music industry. Now, people want to get on itunes like back in the day we wanted to get distribution. While we saw the downfall of Tower and cdnow.com, online markets like itunes and napster have become the biggest music retailers ever. Growing up, it was all about tower and Sam Goody: the market changed.

    So now, we don't have the same sales. Instead of the biggest album being diamond, it's triple plat (expect Kanye or Fifty or Kenny Chesney to hit at least that.) However, singles are the cause of that. There was a period there when CD and Tape singles were no longer sold and all you COULD do was cop the album. Album sales peaked at the same time illegal downloads did: 1998 to 2001.

    So, what's my point? album sales are effected less by illegal downloads than they are by legal downloads and an unstable economy. Once two things happen, you will see a resurgeance in sales:

    1. A harnessing of legal downloads (including ringtones and video singles) as a means of recording "album sales", and

    2. A rebounding economy, which will likely consist of a democratic president and a prudent exit strategy from iraq...
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  17. Sodium

    Sodium I Get Computers Putin'

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    if more and more people get computers and culture begins to shift in such a way that computers/internet are tightly interwoven with life itself then how does that affect muic sales. Music sales? Music is free at that point. what idiot would buy something that is free and is as readily available as air.

    the only excuse to buy off itunes is ignorance. For example I know how to get any piece of music I want for free. Some people are lames and/or new to this style of thuggery however. and I think that kind of ignorance will be gone as the technology lifestyle creeps into our culture more and more in the next few years. I would accept your assessment if not for this basically obvious logic.


    + Soultan your basic problem is that you have no swagger at all. musicians that sell have to possess qualities that other people look up to. that is music in a nutshell. Please explain what genre you are trying to appeal to. Are you trying to be like Common? That nikka is soft and I will spit in his soft face. He appeals to 30-40 year old white people who frequent starbucks in pastel chancletas. These people are old and still conditioned to actually purchasing music and will be dead soon so there goes your genre. I wish i could spit in its face like the grand dragon thug i am.

    Anyway, soultan the real genre you should fux with is the bubbling but still quite formless hipster hip hop/pop scene. Kanye West currently makes that kind of music to give you an idea. Its almost like the old beastie boys type of music and style but not as hard, very light-hearted and more narcissistic. I predict this genre to do extremely well in the future as thugged out raps get more played out. Its already not selling like it used to showing signs of its slow yet inevitable demise. The first nikka to break into this mold will blow.
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  18. menaz

    menaz Avant Garde

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    What is Good? what is evil? It's always the autocrats of the pecking order who decree these prinicples. But from whom did these principles come to inherit? But the Jews, christians, and muslims all conformity enforcers. Good and evil are just a label to control the pecking order meme. Is the Bad guy "Captialism"? because Its meme differs from that of "Hindu"? Or is the Bad guy "Hindu" because Its meme differs from that of "captialism"? For instance a Braham of the hindu preaches anti-materalism to his lesser man while he contradictally benefits off the materialism. Why then does the brahman do this? Because of the pecking order. This is the nature of all pecking orders. Good and Bad simplely do not exist we just label our natrual instincts Good and bad to control the sturcture of the peacking order.


    The question is whom describes this allegorical garden of eden but the shepherd conformity enforcing his flock of sheep? What really is this allegorical garden of eden to the jews, muslims, and christians, but a conformity utopia of weakness based on Illusion. Surely, You can't expect a learned man in biopsychology to accept you're arguments from ignorance?

    If one looks at the Sociobiological structure of the superoganism among ants... One will discover that these tiny beasts maintain constant contact, swap bits of regurgitated food, adopt social roles that ranged from warrior or royal handmaiden to garbage handler and file clerk. At the heart of ant colony is a room to which all incoming workers bring their discoveries. Seated at the chamber's center is a staff of insect bureaucrats who examine the new find, determine where it is needed in the colony, and send it off to the queen's chamber if it is a prized morsel, to the nursery if it is ordinary nourishment, to the construction crews if it would make good mortar. What does this uncover?pecking order materialism is even the behavior amongst ants.
    Surely ants did not eat from the Tree of knoweldge? At once I demand you open your bible and show me where this be. You can not. So you must accept the notion materalism is not taught but apart of us to ensure our superorganisms survival.

    You can keep living your lie, but never will I. Also when you fail I will not allow you to wipe a single tear drop upon my clothed shoulder. As a human you must fail, you must experience what is like to fail without shifting. Succeeding is the easy part, but Success without experiencing failure makes you weak. Which is why, Christains, Jews, and Muslims all shift their socalled failures/evils. In the words of Nietzsche: "that which does not kill you only makes you stronger."

    Without materialism there is no survival for the superorganism advancement.
    Without materialism organisms kill the zeitgeist of their superorganism.
    Without materialism, economy dispates, food supplies dwindle,
    and lack of commerce turns into a superorganism survivalist need for materials.
    If you think materalism makes the superorganism EVIL, wait until you see the fireworks display after the fall of MATERIALISM. Oh You will see our true nature then. Katrina was just the peeking glimps over a huge mountain of what survival is like without materialism. You're Welcome to enter the arms of reality at any time, I'll even bear hug you.
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  19. menaz

    menaz Avant Garde

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    But Humans are aware we are not things. humans are also well aware we are human beings. But one thing we do in entrieity for the better of the superoganism is to produce materials. This is a rule of survival the less a group produces the less chance for their survival which does not solely pertain to humans but to the whole sociobiological structure.

    If you want to follow a meme which will leads to your death or impoverishment. Then please do so. I welcome you to commit alturnism suicide for the better of the superorganism.

    So in other words Those which don't agree with the existence of God are ignorant. Therefore you must battle people until they accept God exists? You sound like a muslim. Are you going to WAR with GOD something you aren't able to empirically prove?

    God is not matter. God is not energy. I see no reason to accept that when you can't even empirically prove it. You can philosophically argue that assertion into you're bule in the face but labeling those elements God simplely doesn't make it so. Infact, What scientific test have you conducted to account for this empirical evidence? You haven't. No has. So the argument becomes rationale. A rationale that goes absolutely nowhere, not even close, to proving God. You can not convince me without emperical proof there is a God. Therefore, you're arguments are null and void. Infact, You're arguments are based on "SELF DESCRIPTION" You do not speak for me.

    There is a pattern to you're steadfast delusional behavior for God, you manage to change the subject to God when you can't argue the topic. The only reason I think you argue God is because it is a subject which you can make up as you go along, don't have to read like I do, and noone can ever be right. In otherwords, You've choosen the weakest path, You've choosen the life of ignorance, You've choosen faith over reality. I've figured out you're argument doesn't make a lick of sense. Because If the child is as you say pure and unconscious then the child can not know ever no God. Even primates are born unconcious until they learn to Immate their parents,

    You're argument also has holes in it because you've claimed, God doesn't exist in aniaml minds. However, If you're God is Totality then it should be there. However, you're argued from ignorance it does not.

    Our reality is shaped through the eye of the observer and each observers reality is different from anothers. Not to mention, Perception is influenced by the superorganism. Say a group watched one scene from a movie then as an oral test I asked the group to recall visually thing in that scene... Most won't recall, others will think they recall. Because they can't focus on the big picture. But the interesting part is the power of the social-meme... from the group which thinks it can recall he or she says I recall a red barn which will start a chain reaction where the others who had no idea what they'd recalled to say they now recall that same red barn... but upon reinspection of the scene from the movie they'll realize there was no barn. Ever played that game Telephone? Speech works the same way...You Start off with an original message by the time the message gets around it is completely different. That is how Social-memes and language evolve throughout the Zeitgeists.

    Your mind is constantly playing tricks on you. This is due to the Left and right seperate hemispheres. One half is observational/introspect the other is for verbal and language. You produce language but the right hemisphere does not agree therefore you're perpelxed.

    Also remember what I explained through pyschobiology.
    Tis true our brains differ as much as our bodies. Infact, they may differ more. For instants, one part of the brain, the anterior commissure ... varies seven fold in area between one person and the next. Another part, the messa intermedia... isn't found at all in one in four people. Even our primary visual cortex can vary three-fold in area. And our amygdala ( is responsible for our fear and nurture) an can vary two-fold in volume, as can something called our hippocampus (invovled in memory). lastly, and most amazingly, our cerebal cortex varies in non-learning impaired people nearly two-fold in volume.

    Not ever biogenetic mind is the same.
    Which explains the stupidity of different religions.
    Which explains why people fear and nurture religions.
    Which explains their delusions of God.
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  20. menaz

    menaz Avant Garde

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    But you can't be sure God is the evolution of consciousness. Saying so does not make it so. I fail to see how this conversation has anything to do with God. Yet as dogmatic as ever you've managed to in corporate such poppycock. Since when is JEWISH a language? There is however, hebrew, Afro-Asiatic, Indo-European, Uralo-Altaic, Kartvelic, Dravidian, and Yeddish speaking JEWS. Who do you think you're fooling? You know better than that.

    If God will be what he will be, then to me he will not exist.
    And WHY is this crutch you call God refered to as HE?

    You claim god is Spritual yet in Hebrew YHYH refers to God as a HE.
    Yet another religious contradiction doing your argument disservice.
    You really need to make up your conflicted mind.


    How is God everywhere? How do you know God is everywhere when theres no empirical proof and others don't think so? Let me guess, They're the ignorant, which you must lauch a mental Holy-war against. So you can unlock their unconsciousness to the Totality of God?


    you're God is spirtial?
    you're God is a HE?
    you're God is Energy and Matter?

    ^
    Clearly Azues, saying this ontological argument proves God exists.
    Are You Fucking kidding me? You need emperical evidence, which you
    do not have. Which is why ID is not taught in schools. LOL!



    I'll use deductive reasoning again.

    You've got it all backwards as usual.

    I see, you still think the Material THING makes the PERSON a THING instead of knowing the human being thinks about these things for a survival reason. You're wrong as usual agruing from ignorance, because only the materialism is the thing. But these are things which are apart of us, be it a telephone, a hammer, a house, or a car, all these materalistic things were thought up into realities existence by indivisualists to ensure their Superorganisms survival.


    However, it was already there. Poetry doesn't/can't prove God.
    It proves a irrational nature which without science like we have today
    could not be explained rationally. So they irrationally did it through poems. However, bibical poetry doesn't make it true. Homer's poetry Iliad and the odyssey doesn't make that true. Emperical evidence is needed there is none. People even give their imaginery friends personalities and names. Doesn't mean they exist. I'm sure you're well aware of that, if not, you might be suffering from dementia.

    It's not entertainment, What fantasy world do you live in? People do not blow themselves up for entertainment. They do it, because they believe in the meme's survival. They do it because they've be told to protect this truth. When all this so called truth does is make them kill others or gets them killed.

    Religion is a Crutch for the weak, for those who want to deny their pain exists. Religion is similar to being intoxcated. One drowns their sorrows way in it, one alters what their reality really is with it, One influences killing themselves and others with it. You are the simple minded.


    Actually, the Indivisual organisms work together providing the survival for the Superoganism. You're just stealing my observable factual Sociobiological concept and using it incorrectly. Because you don't know science. This is also what people do to ensure their memes survival in the pecking order. Only, you've forgotten about intergroup battle, there is alot wrong with the meme of religion, First off, none of it is true as you pointed out. Religion was just simple minded poetic jargon trying to rationalize nature etc... because they didn't have Science like we do today to rationally explain how, why, or what nature actually is.

    Science arguing Science makes since to me. Science arguing Religion, doesn't make sense to me. Because it doesn't allow the science to go any where. Now if you argue one scientifical theory against another scientifical theory then that is science. That is when science opens up and gets somewhere.


    Why shouldn't I assume it because if I do you'll write a long unnecessary off the topic explaintion of what you think you know about God? You don't know shit.

    You clearly Showcased that with an unneccary diatribe about God. You have no idea still have no idea what I was talking about when it comes to Materalism being apart of us. Which explains the religious dogmatic reaction.

    You have no path. I do not care for your direction only you're destruction.

    Delusions? You're the one who believes in God. You can never tell someone else they are delusional ever. To even make that statment points out how delusional you are.
    test
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