If Jesus Died for Our Sins....

Discussion in 'The Sanctuary' started by SiFu, Jan 29, 2011.

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  1. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    animal sacrifice was used in marriage cerimonies, covenant agreements they would cut the calf in half and walk through the two halfs together in marriage cerimonies. As did abraham and God when god made the covenant promise to abraham to bless his decendt
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  2. Shadow

    Shadow Kotaro's Master

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    What? there would be no point in Jesus dying if Adam was not perfect because Abraham or someone could have being the sacrifical lamb

    Through one man sin entered into the world which means Adam caused sin to enter the world...he was perfect before that....why would God create imperfect beings?
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  3. Shadow

    Shadow Kotaro's Master

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    Where was the scripture for this? i want to read this



    Animal sacrifices were used to atone for our sinful nature
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  4. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    the point here he WAS perfect. But he sinned by disobeying God. That sin continued throught the generations which is why everyone born after adam was born into sin.
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  5. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    its not only biblical but remember when God told abraham to cut in half two birds, two lambs, and some other animal so God himself could walk through it with abraham to confirm the covenant. Ill find the scripture
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  6. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    Go to google >type in "covenant ceremonies in the bible" the first one is a pdf. But the description looks like the right one
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  7. Shadow

    Shadow Kotaro's Master

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    What? that's what i said. but your comment made it seem like you were implying he wasn't perfect. You said "If he was perfect there wouldve been no reason for jesus to die to correct his mistakes." Unless you meant to say if he wasn't perfect.
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  8. Shadow

    Shadow Kotaro's Master

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    I'm not googling anything, i want scriptures for the animal stuff for marriages
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  9. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    Gen 15:9 is the blood covenant between God and abraham where they walked between the divided animals. They did the same for marriage which is why the bride wore white. By the end if the cerimony it was covered in blood. It represented the union.
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  10. Shadow

    Shadow Kotaro's Master

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    where was the wedding part in the bible? i know the Abraham part
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  11. reggie_jax

    reggie_jax rapper noyd

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    i'm interested in hearing what your definition of perfection is. if perfection in design doesn't translate to perfect actions, then how exactly is that perfection in design defined? like you said, you wouldn't design a less than perfect car and expect perfect actions. you also wouldn't design a perfect car and expect less than perfect actions.

    also... are you of the belief that adam and jesus were effectively equals in design? wasn't jesus god? do you believe in the trinity? if not, how do you interpret his role as the 'son of god?' was adam also the son of god since jesus and adam were equals in design?

    sounds... satanic. lol @ posted via ouija
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  12. Shadow

    Shadow Kotaro's Master

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    First, i don't believe in the trinity


    Now, Adam and Jesus were both perfect but not of the level of God kind of perfection. Adam was designed perfect in God's eyes and God expected nothing less than what he deemed perfect. Adam lost perfection because he chose to disobey God. Adam was not deceived in that garden. He knew was the his course of action was but decided not to do so. Thus the point of free will. God doesn't not force people to serve him. Adam had two choices and decided against what was right. Just like Satan and his demons, chose to disobey God. Adam and Eve's bodies were perfect and should not have died but when they sinned, death entered. If Adam had not sinned, we would still be perfect

    There is a scripture that says that we desire to do bad all the time because we sin. That doesn't mean we always think to do bad thinks but that our nature is to do bad. Perfect being think to do what is good all the time so their nature is to do good. That doesn't mean they can't chose to do bad.


    Jesus and Adam were physically equal in design which was the point. This proved a huge point that perfect being can remain faithful. Jesus was not God because that would contradiction most bible teachings. Are you asking about Jesus' role on Heaven or Earth?

    Jesus was God's first born/creation, Adam was not. Adam never was in Heaven, Jesus was. So i'd say their roles from the start were different
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  13. Shadow

    Shadow Kotaro's Master

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    P.S i love these kinds of discussions :)...make me miss Yah...
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  14. reggie_jax

    reggie_jax rapper noyd

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    out of curiosity.. do you have a specific brand of christianity that you follow or are your beliefs based solely on your own personal interpretations of the bible? i ask not out of disrespect but because i've yet to encounter anyone who voiced the same opinions that you do.
    well the first obvious question is with the first line of your second paragraph. perfect in god's eyes yet not at the level of 'god kind of perfection.' this is an inherent contradiction, is it not? they were perfect according to god's standards yet god himself held a higher form of perfection. is that to suggest there are various degrees of perfection?

    there are also inherent contradictions with your notion of free will. god endowed adam with perfect design, and expected nothing less than perfection, yet adam fell short. does this mean that god failed? god cannot fail. god is perfect. "but adam had the ability to chose..." then adam was not perfect. if adam could chose between good and evil, and he chose evil, then he was not perfect. not any more perfect than you or i are at birth, before we have made any 'choices'.

    as for god expecting nothing less than perfection from adam, this is inherently false if you believe that god is omniscient, i.e. that god knows everything. everything includes the actions of the creatures that he specifically creates in his own 'perfect' image.
    if adam was perfect then his nature was to do good all the time. so why would he 'choose' to do bad?

    i'm asking in general. most christians seem to think jesus is god, along with the father and the holy spirit. that jesus and the father/holy spirit shared the same 'essence' because god put his own essence into the body of a human. i don't personally have any inherent loyalty to this belief, obviously, as an atheist. so i am interested in hearing yours.

    so the distinction you make is that jesus (presumably the soul of jesus) was created first? is there any difference in regards to their actual design? if not, then was adam not created just as perfect as god, since earlier you stated that jesus was a 'perfect copy' of the father.
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  15. Shadow

    Shadow Kotaro's Master

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    going to lunch...i'll answer these when i get back..i don't want you to think i'm avoiding you
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  16. Shadow

    Shadow Kotaro's Master

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    Are you saying my opinions are bad, when you say you haven't seen anyone voice the same opinions as mine? :-(

    But the problem is, who is can be as perfect as God? To imply that anything is on the same level as God would really refute the point of their being a single God. Physical perfection can't be the same as spiritual perfection. Spirit beings are stronger than Physical beings so the couldn't possibly be on the same level.


    Agreed that God cannot fail and he didn't. Adam choosing evil does not mean God failed. The problem with concept of free will is that there is no level of it. Either someone has free will or they are robots/controlled. Since God doesn't not control anyone and isn't involved with molding people's paths. The only real way God could be seen as failing is if no one stayed loyal to him. Which was wrong. Satan was really question his right to rule man. You have to ask Adam why he chose to do bad.

    The bible says that Jesus was was his first creation or first born. Jesus as far as personality was a perfect cop of his father. So the qualities Jesus had his father had more so. The bible doesn't really go into the designs of beings on a spirit level. Now sure what you mean there tbh
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  17. Warpaint

    Warpaint What now?

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    People who died before they got a chance under the new covenant are "asleep". The purpose of the first resurrection is to give those people a chance to accept Christ as their savior.
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  18. Shadow

    Shadow Kotaro's Master

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    ^^asleep as in dead?

    so when you die now, ur just dead?
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  19. reggie_jax

    reggie_jax rapper noyd

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    not bad. i didn't mean for that to sound as condescending as it did. i'm just wondering which form you practice. there are more versions of christianity than i'm capable of keeping up with. i've never met a christian that didn't believe in the trinity (though i was aware they do exist) and this is the first i've heard of adam being the perfect man.

    to be perfectly honest i've always had sort of a distaste for the trinity concept.

    this still leaves the original question to be answered, how to define perfection? i mean i thought that jesus was spiritually perfect which was reflected in the fact that he did not sin. i'm not sure what you mean by physical perfection or how it relates to sin.




    i disagree about the concept of free will.. but lets say just for argument thats correct. even with free will, the perfect man would choose not to sin. out of his own free will.



    i thought it said that jesus was the father's only begotten son?
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  20. Warpaint

    Warpaint What now?

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    Asleep as in dead I figure is what they mean.

    When you die now you must be in some kind of purgatory or transition until the millennium reign.

    You ever read the story of rich man and Lazarus? Probably like that. I'm no scholar I just know what I think.
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