human suffering

Discussion in 'IntroSpectrum' started by Radium, Feb 24, 2011.

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  1. Radium

    Radium f k

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    hey

    i have been recently thinking about something

    (this isnt intended as a catch-all but at least something to give some thought to and hopefully something to be expanded on further in some way by somebody clever enough who reads it)

    people post puberty become increasingly sexual thus influencing their behavior and decision making patterns. sexuality can ultimately be condensed as the desire to pass on the genes you possess in your body to humanity and the desire to accept the genes of another person(s) who is filtered and judged as being worthy of also passing on their genes to humanity.

    so basically....

    your decions are greatly centered around thinking about different ways to promote yourself

    and

    judging others in the same way.

    so puberty, i argue, forcibly pushes people into becoming highly self promoting and also highly judgmental. this is the process which largley stimulates people into seeking power,wealth, and beauty. it makes people become ambitious businessmen, beauty pageant contestants, basketball players etc

    this would make sense in an evolutionary sense because the more humans are concerned with putting forth the best possible versions of themselves, and in turn judging others in such a way as to expect only the best possible versions from them too, ultimately then causes humans that are currently basing the large part of their behaviors and decisions around this structure to create increasingly (at least this is the intent) productive and superior human beings through the process of reproduction.

    essentially, only the very best will be good enough. so, you are commanded to promote yourself increasingly towards this ideal and to judge others according to the way they measure up against this ideal also.

    this only seems to make sense when people are in the stage of their lives to come together and have children. all of this of course with it in mind to create the best possible children. and when you think about it, this whole entire larger process of creating highly self promoting and highly judgmental people seems to be the best way to select the best mates to come together and create the best children.

    but

    what happens when people start to age? the process of aging is interesting because for many animals - it never occurs. for example crocodiles reach puberty and stay in a state of eternal virility until they die. they dont actually ever degrade or show any signs of aging in the way that humans do. i argue that the process of aging is necessary for humans as a way of making them biologically invalid/biologically irrelevant on purpose.

    this seems insane at first but consider this

    can it be that existing in a state, which causes your behavior to become highly self promoting and highly judgmental, actually become destructive to the rest of humanity if sustained excessively? does this process - which creates highly self interested and highly exclusive humans beings - if allowed to remain in this state excessively, create a species which collectively possesses the maturity level and narcissism of a 17 year old boy/girl?

    how effective could this species really be?
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  2. Radium

    Radium f k

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    my conclusion:

    humans are forced into becoming biologically invalid/biologically irrelevant (ugly) on purpose through the process of aging. this state is the mechanism humanity, as a species, implements as a way to make humans less self indulgent/self interested and also less judgmental/exclusive to others. this process is necessary.

    re: human suffering

    for the purposes of this thread i will argue here that human suffering is largely caused by the desire to remain in a state of biological relevance/validity. humans, in failing to ever move beyond this state, remain highly self interested and judgmental, basing all of their decisions and behaviors on the attempt to continue to promote ever depreciating (aging) genes.

    so instead of moving on, people remain locked into a more primitive thought process. they chase wealth and power as a round-a-bout way to become ever increasingly biologically relevant/biologically valid despite the fact that their own bodies, through the process of aging, has been trying to force them into stopping this behavior. women will buy plastic surgery, men will try to seek more and more money...

    in a way all chasing in desperation the ghost of their youths in vain...

    the body attempts to say, at a certain age, that its not necessary to exist in such extreme states. its not necessary to be so self promoting. its not necessary to be so judgmental about yourself and of others. the body, through the process of aging, will scream this out to them, as they turn a deaf ear and continue on existing in the primitive state of their own long gone youth causing great suffering to themselves and also to others.

    i believe that this is ultimately the source of why society structures itself into stratified class systems opposed to a more leveled structure. the wealthy are the people who never realize the need to stop being so self indulgent and exclusive. thus, from their own inability to relinquish their own self importance they hoard the wealth and power of society to themselves and they judge everyone not like them as being deservingly worthless compared to them. thus, from this eternal immaturity: the creation of have/have-not society.
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  3. reggie_jax

    reggie_jax rapper noyd

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    it's a really interesting thought. i think it says a lot about the disparity between youth and maturity, how these two concepts have become increasingly disproportionate to one another as technology improves and life expectancy is extended. there is of course a silver lining. in the course of extending death we have also extended and heightened youth and intellectual development in particular.

    when life first starts, everything moves at a rap!d pace (why is that word censored?). the first 20 years or so are like the launch of a space shuttle: fiery and exciting, a desperate struggle to escape the forces that hold us down. the decline of old age is more akin to getting outside the atmosphere but finding that gravitational pull still has its influence, albiet in less obvious ways, leaving us to mildly orbit the planet wondering 'what's next?'

    as you noted we are creatures of ambition, fueled by evolutionary instinct. in our early life this ambition manifests rather directly, in accordance with the natural benefits of youth and with our own under developed intellectual personas at that age. basic examples would be the pursuit of beauty and sex, of popularity and athleticism. basically the most direct, fundamental ways to show off what you're worth and feed your growing ego.

    as you mature, shit changes. suddenly your priorities along with your points of pride start to change. you begin to consider the income, intellect, and power of others as more relevant factors in whether you should take them serious. now where you and i might differ is that i don't necessarily think aging is a function designed to make humans less judgegmental or self obsessed. i think it simply shifts the criteria on which these judgements are made.

    that's sort of a self fulfiling prophecy in a way... the young and the beautiful value youth and beauty, the greedy and the powerful value influence and wealth. the old and the wise of course value... experience and wisdom.

    some pursue areas of achievement that are arguably counter productive for humanity as a whole.. such as hogging up all the wealth or the power, just like in high school some of the kids expressed their own ambitions by picking on others or striving for popularity.

    i don't necessarily think any of these criteria are any more or less valid than the others. of course i have my preferences. i think that those who pursue wealth and power.. the way they use that wealth and how they interact with their fellow man does say a lot about their own insecuirities.

    sometimes you do get the odd warren buffet type who simply seems to love business yet recognize the corruption of absolute greed and hegemony. so it would be dogmatic to say 'those who pursue wealth are compensating for lost youth, those who pursue wisdom have seen the light.'

    have both not simply seen the writing on the wall? youth doesn't last... humans must find other ways to strive to excell in the later 3/4ths of their life or else risk becoming irrelevant, not only biologically but also socially and intellectually. our society is basically a sea of competing egos and influences, we are constantly measuring our selves up to our peers, our ancestors, and our idols. nobody wants to be irrelevant.
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  4. Radium

    Radium f k

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    the difference, i think, is sexuality.

    the first truth of humanity, lets say, is that human beings seek happiness. throughout their whole lives this never changes. humans do a sea of different things to try and achieve it.

    then comes in: sexuality.

    what ultimately happens is that humans on reaching sexual maturity start to seek happiness from a mode based on sexuality. that is, highly self promoting/highly judgmental

    i argue that as kids, the modes that brought to us happiness, were fundamentally different than that.

    so whats really interesting to me here is what happens to the human being after sexual relevance/validity ie old age

    now...

    either they will return back into a child like state (that is, depending on modes of happiness that are not ultimately rooted in sexuality) or continue seeking modes of happiness based on sexuality even though its not longer necessary.

    i argue that it would be more healthy actually, to become like kids again upon finishing sexual maturity and finally becoming sexually irrelevant

    instead i believe many people fail to make this change back into a child like (non-sexualized) state and continue still basing their modes of seeking happiness on what are now, ultimately useless, sexual drives

    you bring up this exact point here:

    ie people start to think about what kind of car they drive, what kind of house they have, what school they went to, what they do for a living, how much money they bring in etc

    has the nation's overuse of credit/debt that plunged us into a recession not signal a sign of this in a way? why did we really need this stuff? to maintain what? appearances?

    you seem to be saying that this transition towards seeking wealth and power are only natural things that come as you age.

    i argue that these are all actually irrelevant ways of maintaining long gone sexual relevance. i argue that they are not necessary, and in fact, bring about greater suffering. i argue that the mature thing to do, would be to relinquish your sexual validity when the time is right instead of trying to desperately hold on to it through various unnecessary machinations. i argue that the mature thing, actually would be, to become like a child again.
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  5. reggie_jax

    reggie_jax rapper noyd

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    the funny thing is the extremely elderly do revert into a child like state in many ways... though this can be written off as the decline of the mind.. a lot of people do end life similar to the way they came in. maybe it's a transitional state by nature..

    i guess the only questions i really have considering your proposal would be: what is this childish ideal you feel we humans should strive for, i.e. how do you distinguish the non-sexual drives from the sexual drives, once sexual maturity is reached? hell, even before sexual maturity is reached the life of the ego begins. children do bully, children do compete.

    and when do you think sexual irrelevency is attained? humans do have a reproductive shelf life... but the end of youth and the decline into old age begins long before we are rendered invalid. could it then be argued that we should abandon the promotion of ourselves once parenthood is achieved in order to pursue the promotion of our seed, rather than wait for our sexual demise to give up our own self obsession?
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  6. Radium

    Radium f k

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    youre asking the right questions. i think what im saying is ultimately just a newly put together way of expressing the buddhist ego ideal. that is, that the ego should be destroyed...

    which i think is probably impossible, at least fully...

    but at best though we can at least better understand what we are and why we do the things we do. and in that way we can better understand what things are truly worth pursuing vs what things probably arent as we live and we ultimately age through our own lives...

    its true that the process of becoming sexual starts even before puberty. i think that society is probably so designed for creating humans that compete to become sexually relevant that its ingrained into everything. it probably starts in a very basic way when kids start to truly create their own identity. that is, when they start to create attachments to things based on what they think is good vs what they think is not good. thus, if society says that being muscular or beautiful is good (because society thinks these things are sexually relevant) a child will take this and integrate it into his/her identity early on. thus in a very rough kind of way, becoming sexualized way before sexual maturity even happens.

    i think there is a state though, before the identity is fully, or even barely fleshed out, that very young children look out at the external world in a very pure and naked kind of way. they look at the world very innocently only appreciating what is happening with a kind of naked awe. they have no concept of sexuality or any kind the of sexual promoting that the people in society spend much of their lives concerned about. i think we all start out in this state, then gradually, we start becoming sexualized, ultimately preparing us for the act of reproducing one day.

    there comes a time when we are beyond that point. i cant say when that point begins. but it does one day; for humans at least. its probably then best to try to shed this sexualized version of yourself and become like that very young child you once were again. i think this decision is the most in tune with the reality of what is actually happening to you. you can choose not to, and can choose to stay in an eternal state of sexual posturing and promoting, but that would increasingly not be in tune with the reality of whats happening to you as you live and age through your life.

    yeah i would say once you have kids that it should ultimately become less about you and more about your kids. i think that was ultimately always the function of aging in humanity. like i said, many animals dont actually age. in fact, it could be that aging in humanity was something remote, and only happened in a seperate tribe/group of early man. it might have been that this remote group of aging humans had became more efficient than other groups of humans who lacked a similar aging process. because of the way aging may have made them less self interested, they may have flourished and spread this tendency for aging throughout the rest of the world instead of some other group of humans that lacked this same ability. the function of aging may have been that necessary to human society.

    yo im glad you brought up the extremely elderly. i think they are probably the most well adjusted human beings amongst all of humanity. and strangely they are also almost just as similarly removed from the human sexual prime that occurs during the middle part of our lives as very young children. the extremely elderly and the very young children are positioned with the greatest distance from sexuality in general. this perhaps might be why they seem to have such a pure interaction with reality; they are the least sexualized.
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  7. Radium

    Radium f k

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    riz post something in here
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  8. L7 - LMV - L7

    L7 - LMV - L7 The Fat Cat

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    Asexuals

    [/argument]
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  9. Radium

    Radium f k

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    no its not that i think people shouldnt have sex

    basically it was that i think trying to become sexually relevant works as the great shaper for the decisions we make about everything; we want to have sexually relevant traits and we want the other people to have sexually relevant traits.

    interacting socially (like the way we do here - or for that matter, anywhere) is basically like a big exchange of sexually relevant traits; where you demonstrate what traits make you sexually relevant and you affirm (or negatively judge) what traits make another person sexually relevant (or not). try to think of a social setting in humanity where this is ever not true. i couldnt...

    its so important because this is the self regulating mechanism the human species uses to select what genes should pass on into the next generation of humans. thus, if you possess genes that are considered invalid (you are mentally retarded, missing limbs, you have what is interpreted as a flawed behavioral pattern) you will be negatively judged and you will not pass these genes that have caused these things to happen to you into the next generation.

    and if you have genes that are considered valid (strength, beauty, intelligence) you will be positively affirmed and your ability to pass these genes into the next generation increases.

    thus the great push to become sexually relevant; if you dont possess this desire; your ability to pass on your genes decreases. think of early human society when we existed in relatively small groups instead of large scale society like we do today. it was likely something similar to the way chimpanzee society is structured; males compete to become dominant as a way to secure territory, the most food resources, and female mates. so it was likely that chimpanzee males who were more aggressive and powerful than other chimpanzee males had a greater chance of passing on their genes which caused them to be this way to the next generation. and subsequently, chimpanzee males who were passive and weak gradually started having less and less of a chance to pass on the genes which made them this way.

    human society was probably similar in many ways. this too is probably why human society, and we ourselves, are still so aggressive; because our ancestors used it as a way to pass on their genes. this is probably the reason why males tend to seek power and females tend to seek to become beautiful.

    anyway

    becoming sexually relevant is really really important and honestly, ubiquitous. so i think, a great deal of the joy we experience from anything is based on this. essentially, we think something is good because we think, in some way, it has some type of sexually relevant value. cars, homes, people, music, art, furniture, clothing....

    and of course we judge things negatively for lacking sexually relevant value...

    so i think its really important to become aware of the judgments we make about what is sexually relevant and what isnt. i also think there is a huge conflict psychologically as people start to get old and thus, sexually invalid. this process takes decades so its like this long drawn out maze of trying to remain sexually valid in an increasingly sexually invalid reality...

    this causes tremendous confusions about the self and how it relates to the external world and ultimately suffering, if not navigated correctly...
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  10. Radium

    Radium f k

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    oh yeah

    from now when we talk about swag please remember that we are talking about sexually relevant value

    thank god that we finally have a word for it. this is proof that society is improving.
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  11. reggie_jax

    reggie_jax rapper noyd

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    the one thing about evolution is that often times species inherent traits that benefit not only the individual sexual drives but the species at large.

    so here's my question

    do you think maybe this extension of the ego past the years that you're sexually relevant drives people to look for ways to compensate and excel in other areas which have benefited the species and brought us forward? sure there's greed and corruption but lets say there wasn't that competitive drive there's always been, would humanity be the same?
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  12. Radium

    Radium f k

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    yeah thats a good point. its true that these basic sexual drives power a lot of human creative forces. and that they can manifest in the later years in possibly extreme ways as a way to ultimately compensate for being sexually less relevant.

    i think youth usually always have a pretty clear goal in mind (become sexually relevant, have sex) but for adults there is more confusion about what life should be about, which i guess forces them into weird states sometimes. when you were younger life had a clear cut purpose but, as you get older, life becomes increasingly existentialist themed. the first purpose was to become sexually relevant obviously, but after that its really not so clear.

    i agree with your point that this process has been behind some of a greatest creative forces of humanity. and some of the best cases of greed and corruption.

    i would say the difference is in how self promoting the latter can be. i think there is a difference between stephen hawking working on theory to explain the universe and a tyrant riding around in gold plated cars for no reason. stephen hawking is not still trying to position himself as this dominant male who has first access to all the sex-mates and food resources like a chimpanzee.
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  13. UnbrokeN

    UnbrokeN Well-Known Member

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    good read, .
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  14. Noncentz

    Noncentz Sieg Heil, M'fer!

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    That is one of the most facetious things that I have ever read and I'm dead serious.

    It's a bad theory... please don't waste anymore of your time on it.
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  15. Carpe Noctem

    Carpe Noctem Neos Helios

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    What's wrong with it?

    It's basic sociobiology.

    To maintain biological relevance and 'outmate the competition' we become attached to our looks/status symbols/acquiring wealth/etc. We set impossible expectations for ourselves which is the cause of most suffering.
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  16. Radium

    Radium f k

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    ( . _ .)
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  17. L7 - LMV - L7

    L7 - LMV - L7 The Fat Cat

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    I was reading an essay today that reminded me of this thread. Here's an exert:

    "I am extremely sexual in my desires: I carry them everywhere and at all times, I think that form that arises the drive which empowers us all. Given that drive, a man does with it what his mind directs. In the manner in which he directs that power lies his secret." - William Carlos


    What do you think Radium?
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  18. hearstothemute

    hearstothemute New Member

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    the one point that stood out in your initial post, was the act of putting someone's best self forward in having a child. i'm not sure i'd reduce conception to an act of narcissism. if anything sexuality is an evolving aspect of any one person. in the way someone's sense of empathy or humor, might mature as they do physically. the ideal model of society, right or wrong, is to plan for a child when you and your partner are ready. when financially, emotionally, and physically you're both at your best to provide for what you give life to. that to me would prove the antithesis of a narcissistic act. that's a sense of maturity that allows you to begin to put another whole heartedly before your self, and relinquish your own self importance.

    i could see your point in cases of people having illegitimate children, abortion, ect. cases where sex trumps the importance and impact that the actions of such could have on life there after. but even then, i feel like if you look at the age of people in those cases statistically the vast number would be under 25. which would just go back into proving that sexually these people are still very immature. for the fact that their sexuality is of greater importance than any possible outcome that could prevail from the act of sex.

    at the same time, i think i was partially lost in your initial point. so who knows...
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  19. Radium

    Radium f k

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    i argued that sexuality pushes us into becoming highly self interested because, in this way, we can become increasingly sexually relevant.

    try to think about what it might have been like in early human society. lets say that there was originally a group of no more than several humans and lets say that they reproduced 1 female for every 1 male. and lets say that there was once a tyrant male who was more aggressive and powerful than the other males. lets say that, because he was possessed by the traits of a tyrant, he overpowered the other males in the group and mated with all of the females instead of them. thus this new tyrant male would have been impregnating the females instead of the other non-tyrant males and passing on this tyrant trait into the next generation.

    this new generation of males would have possessed that tyrant trait like their father, and therefore, would have competed w/ each other for power, and ultimately, the ability to mate too. the males who lacked this tyrant trait would have been weaker and gradually would have started to disappear as they ultimately became out competed by the new tyrant males. interestingly, i think this might be why humanity is so quarrelsome and aggressive even today. the tyrant males, because they were tyrants, would have been fighting w/ each other constantly to become dominant. early human society might have gradually become very gang like, as males started to become increasingly possessed by the tyrant trait and concerned with power. this might be one reason why why humanity has spread so far across the earth: tyrant males eventually would compete to become leaders and would constantly fight with each other and then break away and establish gang like groups or tribes that repeatedly branched off from each other too. perhaps to the point that they spread out almost like seeds dropping off from a new tree around the entire earth over and over again.

    i believe this is why men today are so concerned w/ becoming powerful and dominant through their own various and unique machinations: our fathers were tyrants who used this tyrant trait to become sexually relevant and thus out compete the males who lacked it.

    try to think also of the effect this would have had on women. the tyrant males would have been competing with each other for women in an almost prize like or trophy like way. thus only the most beautiful women would have been selected by them. ugly women would not have been competed for and thus would never get a chance to pass on their genes. gradually this system would have made these increasingly power-seeking men select only the most beautiful females to mate with to the extent that gradually, women would have started becoming more and more beautiful.

    i think this might be a large reason why women today are so intrinsically concerned with becoming and always remaining beautiful: because their mothers used it as a way to be selected for mating.

    sigh

    anyway my main point is that we, as humans, have a long history of trying to become increasingly sexually relevant. i think the writing is kind of on the wall; if we would only just look. it is deeply ingrained into us.



    yeah i agree. i think the act of having a child was always supposed to act as a way to turn off the push to become sexually relevant. i think also, the act of aging (becoming ugly and physically weak) plays a part in this too. in a way i think these are checks put into the species as a way restrain this dramatic push to become sexually relevant.
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  20. hearstothemute

    hearstothemute New Member

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    so in so many words, you're arguing that social darwinism has in fact overwhelmed natural selection. or at least, beefed it up a bit. where that ideology faults, is in that we are not several peoples. within a nation you get minorities of every perceivable "perfection." in which case the less desirable will band together, and inevitably STILL reproduce. it's a bit of 'a tree falls in the woods.' if the strongest man, destroys all that are below him.. what is the relevance of his strength? it takes weaker specimen to assert his dominance. so where as, your point could be put into play if the dominant eventually overwhelmed the minority, but, how would that be possible when dominance is all relative? this isn't an age of who's stick is bigger, despite the fact it at times reverts to that; there is a much greater capacity to which dominance is defined. it's no longer so primal, as sexuality driving all systems. again, even though at times, all faculties are stripped and it seams to resort to that. ultimately that's such an extreme, that no mass could ever act/react and grow in such a detrimental span.
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