Human Farming

Discussion in 'Overtime: Off-Topic Discussion' started by Geedorah, Feb 1, 2013.

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  1. Ravenous510

    Ravenous510 Well-Known Member

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    First, please name a leader of a counter-culture or anti-establishment movement who hasn't been either physically assassinated or had his/her character assassinated.
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  2. Ravenous510

    Ravenous510 Well-Known Member

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    Lol @ this guy scouring Google right now.
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  3. J Keeper

    J Keeper Super Jesus

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    Or just not living and dying by the words of this thread.

    Within their own culture, Mao, Kim Jung Un, Vladimir Lenin, Ghandi, Thomas Jefferson, amongst others.
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  4. Ravenous510

    Ravenous510 Well-Known Member

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    Ghandi: Assassinated.

    Mao Tse Tung: Good example I suppose, but Mao surrounded himself with military might right from the beginning. He also became very unpopular after the Great Leap Forward, and was ousted from government. You also have to remember that eastern governing styles and norms are much different than in the West. The culture of collectivism in the East and the "cults of personality" it propagates makes it more difficult to defame or assassinate a leader once that leader has gained some momentum.

    Thomas Jefferson: Although Jefferson was certainly a radical in his time in many ways, I don't think I'd consider him an "anti-establishment movement leader", in the traditional sense because in his time, everyone was an "anti-establishment movement leader". There was a growing movement to resist British rule, and the power that would seek to suppress such an uprising was centered across the Atlantic....unfortunately you wouldn't have the benefit of such a distance between you and the oppressing force with which you would need to do battle if you chose violent rebellion as a path to change...

    Kim Jong Un: Are you daft?

    Vladimir Lenin: Exiled twice to Siberia, and survived various assassination attempts.

    Yeah...once again...good luck...
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  5. J Keeper

    J Keeper Super Jesus

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    Fair enough, not sure why I thought he wasn't assassinated, probably because he lived to the ripe old age of like 78 and accomplished most of what he wanted to.

    Okay. He fits your criteria.

    You don't consider a man who helped overthrow a standing government, "anti-establishment."

    Again, he fits your criteria.

    Meant Kim Il Sung, been a while since I bothered to read up on the dynasty and made a mistake.

    Unlike you I try to speak from my own knowledge instead of frantic referencing.

    Again, he still fits your criteria.

    And so I ask again, in what way am I out of my depth.
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  6. Ravenous510

    Ravenous510 Well-Known Member

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    He didn't accomplish all of what he wanted to. Also, I'd like to point out that what he did accomplish, he accomplished without violence.

    Not when the majority of his countrymen were on board with his movement.

    Uh huh.

    Lmao...what makes you think I'm "frantically referencing"?

    No he doesn't, actually. Being exiled to Siberia would qualify as character assassination.

    Again, you are out of your depth because you fail to learn from history's lessons, and you seem to think that violent upheaval will solve the country's issues and that you will somehow be able to circumvent the vast resources of the ruling class and "kill" them with small arms.

    You're a silly guy.
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  7. SuperNegger

    SuperNegger Toe Tagger Type Negger

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    Hmmm, looks as though I've some reading to do. I must catch up on this thread at some point.
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  8. J Keeper

    J Keeper Super Jesus

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    Doesn't matter. That's not what you wanted me to name.

    Doesn't matter. That's not what you wanted me to name.

    lolwut. He suffered like three strokes and then retired to an estate he already claimed.

    What you call exile, many call, "retirement."

    I'm sorry, but when did rich people become immune to bullets?

    You certainly like putting words in mouth, a fact I haven't really brought up, but it's really wonderful to witness in repetition.

    You're an apprentice at best with the use of strawman. Please, just stop until you can learn to use it effectively.
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  9. Ravenous510

    Ravenous510 Well-Known Member

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    It does matter. I'm simply pointing out that the example of Ghandi does not serve your argument in any way, shape, or form. He was assassinated despite the fact his resistance movement was premised on non-violence, meaning that even non-violent anti-establishment movement leaders are subject to assassination and/or character assassination. How long do you think Ghandi would have lasted if he carried an AK-47 and preached violent aggression?

    Ghandi's power came from his stance on violence, and his willingness to lay down his own life for what he believed in, as opposed to the willingness to take the lives of others.

    Okay, fine. I'll give you Thomas Jefferson, but if I give you Thomas Jefferson, then you also get George Washington, Alexander Hamilton, Benjamin Franklin, and every other "founding father".

    Imprisoned at the House of Preliminary Detention in Shpalernaya Street, Vladimir was refused legal representation, so denied all of the charges. His family rallied round to help him, but he was refused bail, remaining imprisoned for a year before sentencing...........Vladimir was sentenced without trial to 3 years exile in eastern Siberia.--Wikipedia

    That's character assassination via kangaroo court if I've ever heard of it.

    When did average citizens become immune to militarism, replete with directed-energy weapons, high capacity magazines, armored vehicles, drone strikes, brainwashed highly trained personell, etc, etc, etc?

    These are just tiny components of the arsonal that a "citizen militia" would have to combat, and once again, I remind you that you would never even get within firing distance of a target that matters. The ruling class travel by learjet and helicopter.

    Once again...good luck with that.

    Points tacked on as addendums don't count as "straw man fallacies".

    Try again, mate.
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  10. J Keeper

    J Keeper Super Jesus

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    He fit the required criteria you asked me to name.
    :)

    Ahh, thank you for the reference.

    According to his wikipedia, this was before he even came to power.

    So what.


    I never said that we were immune to anything, you're the one who implied that the people in power, those who are corrupt, are somehow untouchable.

    No one is untouchable.

    You also imply that the military would blindly follow orders to fight against a domestic civilian uprising based upon principles of equality and freedom.

    Tomorrow I'll go through and quote all the things you injected into my arguments just to destroy, that I never said.

    Mob violence, of course, is the one that I immediately remember.
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  11. Ravenous510

    Ravenous510 Well-Known Member

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    No, in point of fact, he doesn't fit the criteria. He was assassinated, schmedrick. Good grief, you're dense.

    He wasn't the leader of the nation, but he was an anti-establishment movement leader.

    Once again, your arguing prowess falls to doubt.

    You never said average citizens are immune to anything, but you did imply that rich people "weren't immune to bullets", so I countered your point by illuminating the fact that those with vast wealth are far closer to being immune than the average citizen is.

    People with vast wealth can afford to hire private security, can travel without ever having to come in contact with the street level, and most daunting of all, the law, the media, the military, and the police are on their side because they control governmental policy by controlling finance.

    "Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes its laws" — Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild

    Welp, git yerself a gun there, quick-draw, and see how far ya git!
    They will absolutely blindly follow orders, and if there is insurrection, companies like "Blackwater" definitely will pick up the slack.

    What is it you're proposing then if not mob violence?
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  12. J Keeper

    J Keeper Super Jesus

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    Only after he accomplished his goals and reached a ripe old age.

    Lmao Vladimir Lenin wasn't the leader of Russia. Is that a serious statement?

    Are you really trying to argue that rich people are immune to bullets.

    -_-

    Okay. That doesn't make them invincible.

    So I take you've literally never talked to a member of the armed forces.

    Many of them actively talk about how they are discontent with the status of society.

    And they would never hire Blackwater, hiring an outside force to kill domestic citizens would garner WAY too much support for the revolution. They're not stupid.

    Revolutionary warfare.
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  13. Ravenous510

    Ravenous510 Well-Known Member

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    *bratty little kid voice* Doesn't matter....he doesn't fit the criteria...

    He wasn't the head of government of the SFSR at the time when he was exiled, but he was an anti-establishment movement leader, therefore the assassination of his character at that time means that he does not fit my criteria.

    Are you just trying to behave unreasonably, or are you really this stupid?

    Not in the literal sense, of course not. But as far as people like you and me are concerned, they might as well be. Unless you lead some kind of black ops special forces team that I don't know about, and you have access to the most sophisticated weaponry available....

    Read above.

    Nope. Never. I have never talked to someone in the military before. Never.

    What constitutes "many"? If by "many" you mean a relatively small percentage, then you would be correct. The majority of the military have been brainwashed to follow orders and if they are told that a particular group is operating as a "domestic terrorist" unit, that is what they will believe, because the media will support that story.

    Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh.........

    Right, so you mean mob violence, because that is essentially what civil war descends into.

    Look man, instead of agruing your poorly thought out points on this message board, why don't you buy a gun, organize a "militia", and go out and start waging your "revolutionary warfare". In fact, why don't you see if you can take out a Bilderberg Group member or a CFR member. Look into that and then get back to me.
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  14. J Keeper

    J Keeper Super Jesus

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    What? He eventually rose to power as the head of an anti-establishment movement, with his character assassinated by the establishment beforehand, an effort that obviously failed considering he attained power.

    How can you call me stupid yet make such a ridiculous point. The man had statues erected in his honor. I'd hardly call him a victim of character assassination.

    Or some men with guns that are willing to potentially make the ultimate sacrifice.

    You can find those men during revolutions.

    Again, this is why I believe you've never been in the company of those in the armed forces.

    So the American Civil war was simply angry mobs.

    You are in no position to fault anyone's understanding of history, with statements like that.

    *cough* strawman *cough*
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  15. darigold

    darigold New Member

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    were bred...
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  16. Ravenous510

    Ravenous510 Well-Known Member

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    Look guy, I don't think you're even worth arguing with.

    You clearly don't even know what a "straw man fallacy" is.

    The American Civil War was fought in a different time period and involved completely different circumstances than a modern civil war would.

    At no other time in modern history has there been such a vast deficit between the civilian arsenal and the military/government arsenal, just as there has never been such an inequitable distribution of wealth between classes.

    The truth is that the general populace of this country has been tricked into thinking that they need the latest consumer items in order to feel happy, but due to population booms and resource scarcity, that is becoming less and less possible, which means the general populace is becoming less and less happy.

    When the "happiness meter" hits "zero", the shit will hit the fan and all the white middle class morons who have been derping around stockpiling guns and ammo will take to the streets and try to "take back the country", (which of course really means "take back their right to own a hummer"). Make note that it won't be the truly impoverished communities in this country that will engage in resistance because they will not have enough of an arsenal to even participate due to the fact that they have been subverted by the lure of criminal enterprise and thereby the legal system, leaving them with criminal records which make it impossible to purchase firearms, which is indicative of the "divide and control" technique that is implemented by the ruling class upon the lower strata of society. There are too many perceived conflicts of interest between the varying groups of the lower classes for them to unite.

    No matter what level of rationale I employ with the former group of people, however, violence will erupt if something doesn't change.

    If violence does indeed erupt, I encourage you to join the ranks of the "freedom fighters" and see how it plays out for you.

    If you think you're going to wage "revolutionary warfare", you're mistaken. It takes training and equality of weaponry to maintain ranks or squads against an enemy, and those are two things that the citizenry in America do not possess.

    I'm done, man...you can prattle on if you wish.
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  17. J Keeper

    J Keeper Super Jesus

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    Strawman; is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[3] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and to refute it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

    Show me where I said this.


    Please, show me where I inferred I was going to do any of this.

    Of course you think it is, because it doesn't fit your argument.

    Dude, you're so aware.

    Resources scarcity... HA.

    Yes, using blanket generalizations are always an intelligent way to illustrate a point.

    lol You're a coward.

    The first American Revolution.

    Afghanistan.

    Lol you're the one who instigated the argument.

    Every point you've made comes from a blatant misunderstanding of the references you use to support your argument.

    You're a perfect example of the reference generation at its worst.
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  18. Ravenous510

    Ravenous510 Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to help you out for a future argument you may or may not have with someone else...

    If you're going to accuse someone of using a "straw man fallacy" to support their argument, it means that person is accusing you of saying something you never said, and then arguing against that point which they themselves actually concocted.

    You have provided no evidence of me doing that, especially not in your previous post. That is why I don't think you even really understand what a straw man fallacy is, and it is why I now think you're just a moron.

    Congratulations. You have succeeded in making me think you're a dumb person. Hopefully, you won't do that the next time around.
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