how do we know jesus even existed?

Discussion in 'The Sanctuary' started by TheBigPayback, Aug 27, 2011.

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  1. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    Justin Martyr, a second-century theologian, wrote: “Now there is a village in the land of the Jews, 35 stadia from Jerusalem, in which Christ was born, as you can ascertain also from the registries of the taxing under Cyrenius your first procurator in Judea” (“First Apology,” Chapter 34). Justin Martyr was referring to public records that existed in his day to demonstrate that Jesus was born in Judea. Of course, one would expect that a religionist such as Justin Martyr would naturally support Jesus’ authenticity as a historical person. But what about a historian who despised Christians? Cornelius Tacitus, Roman historian, senator, consul, and governor of the province of Asia, wrote this concerning Jesus and His followers: “Nero … punished with every refinement the notoriously depraved Christians (as they were popularly called). Their originator, Christ, had been executed in Tiberius’ reign by the governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate. But in spite of this temporary setback, the deadly superstition had broken out afresh, not only in Judea (where the mischief had started) but even in Rome” (“The Annals of Imperial Rome,” XV, 44). The fourth-century Roman emperor Julian the Apostate (named this because he turned from Christianity after being brought up in it) wrote a major work against Christianity in which he said this: “Jesus, whom you celebrate, was one of Caesar’s subjects. If you dispute it, I will prove it by and by; but it may be as well done now. For yourselves allow, that he was enrolled with his father and mother in the time of Cyrenius …. But Jesus having persuaded a few among you, and those the worst of men, has now been celebrated about 300 years; having done nothing in his lifetime worthy of remembrance; unless anyone thinks it a mighty matter to heal lame and blind people, and exorcise demoniacs in the villages of Bethsaida and Bethany”(“Cyril Contra Julian,” VI, pages 213, 191). These are reports from pagan Romans who despised Christianity. They had access to government records, and, if they could have disproved Jesus’ authenticity, they would have done so. But, they could not. Their writings are additional proof of Christ’s life. What about the Jews? If Jesus did not exist, the Jews would have had no reason to reject Him! The Jewish historian Josephus admitted that Jesus, His disciples, and John the Baptist lived. He called John the Baptist “the good man” (“Antiquities of the Jews,” XVIII, 5, 2). Scholars recognize as genuine his account of the death of James, “the brother of Jesus who was called Christ” (Ibid., XX, 9, 1). According to “The Jewish Encyclopedia” (1907 edition) and other sources, Jesus is also mentioned in the “Talmud,” the collection of Jewish tradition consisting of the Mishnah and the Gemara. The sections of the “Talmud” which are said to be references to Jesus are Shabbath 104b and 116b; Sanhedrin 43a, 67a, and 107b; and Sotah 47a. You may also wish to read the article “Jesus of Nazareth” in “The Jewish Encyclopedia” (1907 edition), the article “Jesus” in the “Encyclopedia Judaica,” the articles “Jesus Christ” and “Talmud and Midrash,” which shows how the “Talmud” (Mishna) is organized, in “The New Encyclopaedia Britannica” (1981 edition), and the book titled “Jesus Christ in the Talmud, Midrash, Zohar, and the Liturgy of the Synagogue,” by Gustaf Dalman (1973). These facts, all from sources outside the Bible, clearly substantiate the existence of Jesus Christ. Jesus was not a myth. The Bible record is true.
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  2. miscreant

    miscreant 1996 was the shit

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    read this from somewhere else...

    even non christians, in fact anti christians wrote about Jesus, consistent with new testament texts, within ~150 years of his death

    but people still say shit today like 'there is more evidence that Jesus didn't exist than he did'

    fucken idiots
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  3. NightmareEx

    NightmareEx The Beast

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    What % of the texts that mention Jesus can be considered contemporary accounts? Huh? What's that? Did you say zero?

    That's what I thought.
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  4. miscreant

    miscreant 1996 was the shit

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    when you say contemporary accounts?

    you mean records documented during the life time of or very soon after?
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  5. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    Heres witness to his ressurection
    Some people say that the resurrection is myth. Unfortunately for them, scholars report that the earliest testimony for the resurrection goes back to the very year it supposedly occurred–far too early for mythological development. New Testament Scholar Craig Blomberg reports that one such scholar is even an atheist. This is from Blomberg’s blog (HT: Melinda Penner at STR.org): At the “Earnestly Contending” Apologetics conference at New Life Church in Smithfield, RI, this weekend, Professor Dr. Gary Habermas of Liberty University, an internationally known expert on the resurrection of Jesus, reported on a forthcoming work of Richard Bauckham, prolific New Testament scholar for many years at the University of St. Andrews. In it, Habermas explained, Bauckham builds on research by evangelical writer Larry Hurtado and atheist historian Gerd Ludemann, both of whom have argued that belief in the bodily resurrection of Jesus must have emerged within two or three years of the death of Jesus (whether or not one believes it actually happened). The argument goes like this. 1 Corinthians 15:3-6 contains, in credal form, a list of the eyewitnesses to the resurrection of Jesus. By including reference to Jesus’ crucifixion and burial, Paul makes it clear he is talking about bodily resurrection. But verses 1-2 describe that this is information that Paul passed on just as he had received it, using verbs that were technical terms for the transmission of oral tradition. When would Paul have first learned this information? Almost certainly as one of the very fundamentals of the Christian faith taught him when he first became a follower of the Risen Jesus–perhaps by Ananias who instructed him while he was still temporarily blind, in Damascus, after the Risen Christ appeared to him en route. But when one compiles the most probable dates of the relevant events, based on Paul’s own information in Galatians 1-2, if Jesus was crucified in A.D. 30, the most likely date, then Paul’s conversion must have come no more than two years later, in 32. (See any standard conservative New Testament introduction for how the dates are computed). But for Paul to have been given an already established creed including resurrection witnesses, known not just in Jerusalem but also in Damascus, some time must have already elapsed for this foundational information to have been crystallized in this form and become widely known in the various locations believers lived and become widely agreed on as the kind of information to be passed on to each new convert. Ludemann, the atheist, says this means within one to two years from Jesus’ death, it was widely agreed on that Christ had been bodily resurrected. Bauckham, according to Habermas, apparently moves that date back to within about one-half year’s time, in order for the necessary time to elapse for this to become widely standardized by the time of Paul’s conversion. One may still choose to follow Ludemann’s antisupernaturalism (we know resurrections can’t happen) and thus opt for some version of the mass hallucination hypothesis. But the most common skeptical alternative in recent years, that the resurrection stories are just late myths in which beliefs about Jesus’ cause living on became embodied in mythological garb, simply doesn’t have the decades (or sometimes centuries) needed for it to have developed the way all other ancient myths did. At some point, one has to say that it takes more faith to believe in the alternatives to the historic, Christian conviction at this point than to believe orthodox tradition
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  6. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    .Yup.
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  7. miscreant

    miscreant 1996 was the shit

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    yeh

    i read something along the lines of what payback posted

    something about paul's account of the crucifixion which led scholars to believe that it was documented within 3-5 years of it happening

    don't have a link or anything, but i'll try find it if nightmare is interested
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  8. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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  9. miscreant

    miscreant 1996 was the shit

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    ^that's it

    i think i got the link off you

    lol
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  10. miscreant

    miscreant 1996 was the shit

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  11. NightmareEx

    NightmareEx The Beast

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    Josephus is a proven forgery as is widely, near universally accepted scholarship.

    And if we are talking about Paul, formerly Saul who had a vision that lead to the writing that would become his contribution to the new testament, he was a gnostic christian. I believe that point is self explanatory.
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  12. miscreant

    miscreant 1996 was the shit

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    some scholars consider it forgery, some don't

    i don't know how you can determine who is correct

    also, what point is self explanatory regarding paul/saul?

    i'm not so researched in religious historicity
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  13. Mrjdm998

    Mrjdm998 New Member

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    Only an idiot would say he din't exist. The question is was he this messiah, which is not proven.
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  14. Froggie Fresh

    Froggie Fresh THe Elite of Times!

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    The Romans were the first people to start the Census, that's how they charged taxes....they kept records of every citizen that occupied Rome's territory...there are written records that date back to the time Jesus was said to have walked the earth...Jesus, son of Mary and Joseph is on record

    YOU PEOPLE NEED TO STOP TRYNA DISCREDIT MY GOD!...it really makes you all look like idiots
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  15. KRich662

    KRich662 Well-Known Member

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    This again?
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  16. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    Lol^
    New faces, same hersay.
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  17. NightmareEx

    NightmareEx The Beast

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    The first Christians were the gnostics. The Gnostic belief is that Jesus was never a flesh being but is simply another spiritual embodiment of god. Paul wrote the oldest gospel around 70AD and HE didn't even think Jesus was a real person.
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  18. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    Not true. The belief was that he was fully God and fully Man. As in Son of God/ Son of man.
    God in human form, with human frailties as a man. The purities of God, to satisfy cost incurred by man from his sin. as a man WITH sin could never be justice for what hes commited.
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