Hell.

Discussion in 'The Sanctuary' started by x calibur, Feb 2, 2013.

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  1. reggie jax

    reggie jax Well-Known Member

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    @x calibur

    here's my main issue with what you're saying.

    in order for absolute morality to exist, moral and immoral actions by definition must have meaning in and of themselves. the consequences of those actions must flow from the inherent meaning that they possess, and not the other way around. otherwise the morality itself is inconsequential and it is only the reward/punishment which is said to have meaning.

    for example... if you return a wallet you find on the street. the moral worth of that action stands on its own. whether or not the recipient rewards you or even thanks you has no bearing on the meaning or morality of the act.

    all that aside, i'll concede it probably doesn't make much sense for a god to make an amoral world where actions don't carry over consequences into the afterlife, if promoting moral virtue is his main objective. but if i'm being honest i also don't understand why morals which seem uniquely suited to human life on earth would also govern the eternal realm.
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  2. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    If ur having constant "bad luck" then its not just a general issue.

    ur dealing either with a curse or demonic oppression..

    so in that case u need to look for outward causes like someone in your family thata into
    magic or witchcraft.

    or something ur doing thats allowing demonic oppression like anger, or worry, or fear.
    or some fleshly sin.
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  3. ChromeDepot

    ChromeDepot Member

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    :idontbelieveu2:
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  4. x calibur

    x calibur

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    I see.

    this is true when you're only considering the earth. morality and immorality stand regardless of the worldly results.

    however, the situation changes on the metaphysical level. here,
    reward/atonement provide meaning to morality.
    this is a realm of eternity and absolutes. it is here where karmic value is enforced, in perfect accordance with absolute morality.

    consider the analogy of gambling. the chips you're stacking and betting with are not legal tender and don't have intrinsic value. they're just pieces of plastic. but the fact that you can cash them in for real money (which is backed by the fed) is what gives them value, and is the reason why the events of the game matter. if it weren't for that, the poker or craps game would be inconsequential, no matter how many chips you gain or lose.

    likewise, morality is like so many chips that don't matter until you cash in. if the world isn't perfectly regulated by karma (and it certainly isn't), then accounts must be balanced metaphysically.

    Indeed. it's hard to say what Gods main objective is, but I think he favors life, and provides free will combined with ethics.

    it comes down to the link between the soul and the human experience.

    worldly actions matter because all is accounted for in eternal existence. otherwise, life would be amoral chaos.

    also, it's hard to know what the absolute moral code might be. if there is one, it would only be reasonable if it could be attained by an individual through honest effort and introspection. while large-scale social morality may have much in common with the ultimate code, I believe that it is not always in alignment.
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  5. reggie jax

    reggie jax Well-Known Member

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    i'm not following your reasoning here at all. first of all, what i said isn't proprietary to earth; in fact it doesn't apply to earth at all unless you presuppose that absolute morality exists. but if you do make that presupposition, then i think it follows logically that the moral act itself carries inherent meaning. if it depends on a reward or atonement system to carry meaning then the morality of the act itself is actually quite meaningless. it's just a means to an end, like your chips in a poker game analogy.
    i'm not sure what this means.
    the problem with the idea that we can reach absolute morality through introspection is that different people use the same mechanism to arrive to different moral conclusions. the only yardstick we have for measuring which one trumps the other is based mostly on ideological baggage that we bring to the discussion.
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  6. x calibur

    x calibur

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    for one thing, it would make sense for absolute morality to judge 'reward seekers' less favorably than those who acted regardless of love/fear of heaven/hell.
    also, would a negative act such as mass murder become meaningless through cosmic atonement? would it be a means to the end of getting to Hell?

    more to the point, a good or bad act has inherent meaning because of its results in the metaphysical realm. if you are immoral, you must atone for this, because you are governed by absolute morality. without consequences in the eternal plane, there would be no justice and no meaning to worldly life. after all, if one's fundamental being is the soul, and the soul is completely unaffected by your actions in a human frame, then life on earth is not important; your right or wrong actions are not important either. absolute morality would simply not matter, unless it takes effect somehow.

    metaphysical justice provide meaning for life in this situation.

    btw, it seems like there's some sort of tangled conflict here that I still haven't gotten to the root of.

    if a highly moral and highly immoral individual end up the same way metaphysically, it doesn't matter how they lived up to that point. there would be no justice, except for the inadequate justice we apply to each other. it really would make life into an amoral roller coaster ride.

    indeed. it would be very difficult to figure it out 100% for yourself. my point is that, if we are governed by absolute morality, then it should not be totally inscrutable. it should be at least somewhat accessible through moral inquiry and natural inclination.
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  7. reggie jax

    reggie jax Well-Known Member

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    just ask yourself this: is it wrong to kill people because you'll go to hell? if so, then the actual act is meaningless, it's only the consequences that matter.

    it's actually the other way around. the reward and/or punishment only has meaning because it is meant to reinforce a moral law. that's the very purpose it is presumably meant to serve: to promote moral virtue.
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  8. x calibur

    x calibur

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    Ok, I can agree with this. an act is right or wrong based on where it falls on the scales of absolute morality, rather than what metaphysical justice it brings.

    however, I see the need for cosmic enforcement and justice in order to provide significance to absolute morality's role in human choices. reward/atonement doesn't determine right or wrong, but it does provide consequence to human life.

    right/wrong is determined by absolute morality. but where you fall on the scales of absolute morality matters because of cosmic justice.

    I've been arguing that if there is absolute morality, then life should be backed up by cosmic consequence. which is different from what makes an act inherently right or wrong. that is the tangled conflict I was referring to.

    cosmic law provides meaning to choice and reward/atonement. reward/atonement provides significance to choice.
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  9. reggie jax

    reggie jax Well-Known Member

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    it provides another kind of significance, yes. consequence is probably a better term. but the act must be significant regardless of the consequence, otherwise there's no conceivable reason for it to be 'right' or 'wrong.' i think that pokes a hole in the idea that without a system of reward/atonement, life would have no moral meaning.

    this point might be a digression, though. if you prefer a system of reward/atonement then i don't see anything inherently wrong with that (morally speaking), as long as the 'atonement' doesn't constitute torture.

    personally i hope that the universe doesn't exist just to promote moral virtue, as that seems to me a painfully dull premise.
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  10. x calibur

    x calibur

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    there would be morality regardless. I just find it absurd for an absolute moral system to have no enforced justice. otherwise, what is the consequence of life and moral choices? it would be like a society with laws but no enforcement. legal and illegal acts would still be legal/illegal, because the laws determine this. an act is not illegal because you're imprisoned for it, but the justice system provides gravity to laws.

    there's no practical difference when all moral choices are treated the same way. life would still have moral meaning, but no consequence.

    this is all speculation. personally I believe there is more to existence than the morality issue, although it probably plays a role.
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  11. exodus 31315

    exodus 31315 Kanaan

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    Men are so quick to blame the gods: they say
    that we devise their misery. But they
    themselves — in their depravity — design
    grief greater than the griefs that fate assigns.
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  12. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    Long time no see
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