Hell.

Discussion in 'The Sanctuary' started by x calibur, Feb 2, 2013.

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  1. lyricalpriest

    lyricalpriest Rap Games Dawson Creek

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    Idk anymore bro I really don't. If I aint shit I aint shit, I'm tired of trying, when is god gonna see that I can't do it w/ out him and step up? Besides if he wanna do me fucked up like that b/c I'm not fullfillng some mysterious callong that I dnt even know what it is, then fuck it, can't get saved when ur in hell and that's how I feel, god doesn't do a lot of saving
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  2. x calibur

    x calibur

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    assuming that human existence is meaningful, and that there is some kind of eternal soul, it would make sense for there to be cosmic justice. it wouldn't necessarily be like Dante's Inferno or that Heironymus Bosch painting - Hell would ideally be a place where all karmic debts are paid, one way or another.

    it makes sense for God to give humans free will - and free will must extend across the moral scale, or it's not truly free. but why would you be punished infinitely for finite sins? why would God create a soul in the first place if it's going to end up that way?

    that's why I can't agree with an eternal and/or arbitrary Hell, and I can't agree with a god that would impose one.
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  3. reggie jax

    reggie jax Well-Known Member

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    how are karmic debts paid?

    my main issue is with the concept that making someone suffer somehow redeems a crime they committed. that's a sort of arbitrary system in itself, set up to provide incentives for people to behave correctly. basically a cosmic version of the prison system, at best. i would think god could do better.
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  4. x calibur

    x calibur

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    I agree that the historical concept of Hell has played a powerful role of control and deterrence, for better or worse.

    it is like a cosmic prison system, which is based on justice, but not an ideal form of justice.

    It's hard for me to answer what Hell should be. maybe a soul would be sentenced to experience all the effects of their wrong actions - Hitler might experience 6 million deaths, for example. personal intent and awareness might modify this as well.

    then of course, this goes into the heady questions of what are true morals, right/wrong, etc. if there is sin, what is sin? Personally, I assume that God values life and especially sentient life, and that this acts as a basic measure of right and wrong. In any case, I'm certain that acts such as questioning dogma, and indulging natural urges without force or fraud, are not wrong.
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  5. reggie jax

    reggie jax Well-Known Member

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    i'm ignoring the question of morality because that's an entirely different discussion. let's assume for the sake of argument that an absolute moral standard exists and that it is roughly congruent with modern western morality.

    my reluctance once again is that i am not sure i see how making hitler suffer 6 million deaths actually redeems his crimes. first of all, he has no choice in the matter. he's being forced to endure them. that doesn't require any sort of change in character on his part. what this does is it just heaps suffering on top of more suffering in an attempt to settle the score. don't think there aren't people i've wanted to suffer. this is an understandable human impulse, but it's a poor foundation for cosmic justice.

    so what happens to hitler after the 6 million deaths? are we to assume his torture caused him to have a change of heart? what if it didn't, what was accomplished then? is the suffering really all that's needed for redemption? does hitler then get to carry on existing after his bid is up, even if his hatred has only been amplified?
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  6. Aesthet1c

    Aesthet1c The Morning Star

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    Hell,
    is a perception
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  7. x calibur

    x calibur

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    If I understand you correctly, you see Hell as punishment out of spite, whereas Justice should be about redemption.

    on one hand you could argue that Hell is a direct result of decisions made during life, and that the sentence is a consequence of karma accrued. on the other hand, cosmic justice should be more advanced than Hammurabi's 'eye for an eye'.

    additionally, it's hard to imagine a justice system without some kind of penalty for wrongdoing.

    you could twist it and make Hell somewhat more like Purgatory - where if you want to be reborn and/or advance, you must go through trials and tribulation. otherwise, you'll be stuck in a Limbo, where there wouldn't be any torture, but you'd be cut off from any sort of cosmic reward.

    agreeing to undergo a cosmic crucible to be redeemed would be a choice, and would require a change of character on the part of the soul.
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  8. reggie jax

    reggie jax Well-Known Member

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    i'm not necessarily drawing a line between punishment and justice. the way i see it, we need punishment in our justice system as a deterrent as well as to give the victims/victim's families some sense of payback without going on their own vendettas. in the end it's a form of social engineering... trying to foster the right behaviors that are valuable for society as a whole.

    this type of set up makes sense as a sort of ad hoc system administered on top of a more complex and pre-existing reality which we didn't design and can't control. but if there's such a thing as a cosmic morality and a cosmic justice, then we would expect a top down approach that does a better job at tackling the issue. justice then serves not just a practical role, but apparently is a sort of ultimate end in and of itself.

    so i think the question that needs asking is what is it that we are looking for in attaining this ultimate justice? does it by definition have to include suffering? what if a change in character were possible to induce without the least bit of effort or suffering? would that make it seem like the criminal was getting off scot-free to you? would it defeat the purpose of justice?
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  9. x calibur

    x calibur

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    seating myself on the throne of a Supreme Intellect and trying to see things from that perspective is a daunting task.

    with that said, I find it unfathomable that cosmic justice would not involve punishment, unless the nihilists are correct. why should we have free will in the first place if there is basically no consequence to our decisions, and you can be instantly redeemed anyway?

    at first I thought only about proper punishment - but redemption is really important on a cosmic scale, and Justice that ignored that would be incomplete and flawed.

    so, my current view is that Hell should be temporary, absolutely fair, and a choice. the soul must agree to it in order to be redeemed.
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  10. reggie jax

    reggie jax Well-Known Member

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    so the reason that free will has value is because it means our decisions come with consequences?

    the question i'm trying to get across is this: what is the purpose of the punishment? is redemption the ultimate end that we're seeking through punishment, and if so then why would it matter how we got there? if the soul could be 'instantly redeemed,' why does this solution seem lacking?

    i should add that this is something i've thought about but i don't completely know where i stand. i honestly feel like it does seem lacking but i can't articulate why without coming to the conclusion that i get some satisfaction out of the criminal's suffering, whether that suffering redeems them or not. needless to say i feel this provides little moral justification.
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  11. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    I can promise u any problem u have now is rooted in a poor decision on ur part or
    something he told u or clearly were to do that u didnt.

    its not dificult to know what is expected of u as a child of God.

    i mean everything is literally explained to u in black and white.

    shed off ur old worldly man and put on your new, biblically renewed one.
    get ur head in the bible and find out what he promises to give u.

    If ur doing what ur supposed to do. he will always, and legally do what he has to.
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  12. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    I keep telling u its not a punishment. its what U are legally bound to granted u refuse salvation.

    hell is a punishment for rebellious angels. Man follows into the same consequence because
    If u dont follow God by default ur following satan.
    and since u cant be forgiven for ur sin..u are not allowed in heaven
    Nor would u wany to be because heaven would feel like hell to a unrepentant sinner.
    And God has seperated all sin from himself.
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  13. x calibur

    x calibur

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    I would say meaning rather than value. human life would not be nearly as significant if there were no cosmic repercussions for what happens here.

    I'm not basing this on revenge or psychological gratification. I support Hell on the assumption that human thoughts/actions/choices/etc. are of significance. clearly there is no invisible hand of karma at work on earth, otherwise we wouldn't need criminal justice systems. it follows that if this existence is significant and governed by ethics, that there would be cosmic justice.

    And cosmic justice must offer a fair and measured degree of difficulty in being redeemed - otherwise, it doesn't really matter what you do if you reach the same end result. it goes back to meaning and significance.
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  14. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    If u were to poll people i think clearly the majority would say that
    karma or reaping what u sow is an active law.
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  15. reggie jax

    reggie jax Well-Known Member

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    ...what is hell's purpose if not punishment? i can't go to heaven... alright. so extinguish my soul when i die. what is the purpose of sending sinners to hell?

    do good deeds diminish in meaning when bad deeds go unpunished?

    i thought about the fact that we place some value on the struggle which leads to redemption and not just redemption itself. this is a good point.

    this does make me question what is valuable about redemption. obviously it requires a change of character, but it seems like from what you're saying (and from what i instinctively feel) that it requires more than that.

    i can think of at least one form of suffering which seems inherently necessary for redemption, and that is genuine remorse/guilt. without feeling some anguish for the way you made others suffer it hardly seems like you can really have grasped what was wrong about your crimes.

    so let's assume that coming to terms with remorse and guilt is an inherent part of redemption, and that it is directly proportional to the severity of your crimes.

    this would mean that it is indeed more difficult for some to be redeemed than others, and so i think that this assumption should settle the argument about redemption lacking meaning/significance.

    would this be sufficient to you? if stalin or hitler had a genuine change of character and had to wrestle with an immense remorse that was directly proportional to their immense crimes, would that be enough to seek redemption or do you still think that some hell fire is in order?
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  16. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    Hell is where ur spirit goes to await final judgement.
    afterwards everything thats associated with darkness including death itself and sin itself is escorted to the lake of fire
    for destruction.
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  17. x calibur

    x calibur

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    Yes, unless the reward for good deeds were so great that the lack of such would be a punishment in itself.

    if directly proportional, yes. then the struggle with remorse would take the place of hellish fire or ice. (eastern religions have hot and cold hells, interestingly)

    to reiterate:

    assumptions - God exists, the soul exists, souls are given free will but are governed by ethics

    therefore, the karmic surplus or debt you rack up here should directly impact your metaphysical existence. if not, then what is life but some kind of absurd dream?
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  18. lyricalpriest

    lyricalpriest Rap Games Dawson Creek

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    well then if i made a poor decision, he ripped my world upside down to punish me, and it'll never be the same. All i ever did was try to love my family, i don't do shit i stay home, i don't go out i work i do everything a man can do, i pray w/ my daughter i take her to church i did all that, and ALL of his promises have been broken, my life isn't abundant, im miserable, im lonely, I have constant bad luck, and idk what else he wants me to die a martyr for his cause!? sheesh LORD CAN WE GET A BREAK WE AINT REALLY HAPPY HERE, if this isn't HELL, then why so much pain and dispair?!
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  19. reggie jax

    reggie jax Well-Known Member

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    really? i always thought that the meaning came from the good deed itself and not the reward.



    interesting. for some reason i don't feel that remorse would be sufficient to redeem mass murder, no matter how remorseful the murderer was. i don't think any amount of torture could redeem them either, though.

    i don't really see it that way. it sounds like you're saying that life is a waste of time if you can't earn points to spend in the afterlife.
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  20. x calibur

    x calibur

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    you could argue this. but if there's an afterlife, and your deeds on earth have no affect on your experience of it, it sucks away the meaning of human life. life would be like a video game that, regardless of what you do in it, you can walk away from it unaffected.

    My view is that intentions/decisions/actions/results should bring about positive or negative karma, based on an ethical measure. depending on your balance after life, you should be rewarded or punished. however, Justice should focus on redemption and not just getting an even score, which is why the soul must come to terms with its human choices.
    whether its remorse or some other form of atonement, wrongs should be balanced out. since sin is finite, the punishment should also be finite. I see eternal damnation as entirely unreasonable.

    it can be demonstrated that cosmic justice doesn't regulate life. if it is not applied in the afterlife, what significance do ethics have in human life? if a moral exemplar and a mass murderer end up the same way metaphysically, I must question the meaning of human existence. it seems like a nonsensical diversion if there are no ordained consequences.

    of course, if there are no ethics/soul/God, that changes everything. but I start with those assumptions.
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