greatest wrestler of all time?

Discussion in 'Smack Down!' started by xX_NASTY_Xx, Jan 17, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. chop stick

    chop stick Mr President

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2003
    Messages:
    26,127
    bret hart or kurt angle.. and nobody can argue with that. maybe even kurt angle more so than bret hart because of his amature wrestling which makes him even more credible in the wrestling world IMO

    kurt angle is a GREAT pro wrestler, he can talk, hes capable of being the good guy, the bad guy, the funny guy.. not many wrestlers have been able to pull off all 3


    btw im not a big kurt angle fan... dont know if im even a fan... but i cant deny hes the best all around wrestler.
    test
  2. abzinthe

    abzinthe let's get incredible.

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2008
    Messages:
    2,356
    lol no. honestly, i'd say those two might be the most overrated ever.
    test
  3. abzinthe

    abzinthe let's get incredible.

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2008
    Messages:
    2,356
    and for anyone with the audacity to claim that it isn't nash, i believe he has a chart that will prove any doubters wrong.
    test
  4. chop stick

    chop stick Mr President

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2003
    Messages:
    26,127
    kurt angle is the best wrestler ever. then maybe benoit and bret hart
    test
  5. abzinthe

    abzinthe let's get incredible.

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2008
    Messages:
    2,356
    if you're really, really into seeing ankle locks, then sure, i can see where you're coming from.

    he's really good at a lot of things, but he's not really great. so i could see saying he's one of the most well-rounded wrestlers ever, but definitely not the best all-around. it's not helped by the fact that his tna run has proven that he's not really a draw at all, and he's not at that level where he can bring a promotion to the next level just by being there (like nash, hogan, or to a lesser extent hall did). he's at the jeff jarrett level where he's credible enough to fit in with main eventers sometimes, but he's not really seen as a MAIN guy. and yes, drawing power is something that should be considered in any "best wrestler ever" discussion unless you want to give up right now and concede that it's bryan danielson.

    also, i can't think of anyone else who's been helped as much by being booked against really good opponents as angle has. sure, flair had a formula, but it was a formula that could get a good/great match out of guys like luger or ronnie garvin and bret and shawn were able to get really good matches out of guys like sid. even cena has that weird ability to get the best out of guys with limited abilities. meanwhile, angle only tends to have great matches against guys who are also great and who can keep up with the one formulaic match he pretty much always has. when he faces guys who aren't on that level, it's a clusterfuck, which is why he's always paired with the most talented guys on the roster while the real greats are stuck carrying guys like khali.

    just going by your standards of "good guy, bad guy, funny guy" nash, triple h and shawn michaels fit and are leagues ahead of angle in many other areas. oh, and angle really only had one good run as a face, ever. and that was 7 years ago, and only for a few months. and as part of a huge company-wide angle. he's pretty much always been a heel since then, and even when he was turned face it seemed like the people didn't really WANT to cheer for him, and it was only a matter of time before he went back to his natural role as a heel.
    test
  6. abzinthe

    abzinthe let's get incredible.

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2008
    Messages:
    2,356
    My honest list of the best wrestlers ever to not be named Kevin Nash:

    1. Steve Austin: I was never a huge fan of his during the Attitude Era, but I respect what the guy has done and recognize his abilities. People tend to only remember him as a brawler, but throughout his career he's also been a great technical wrestler, an awesome cocky heel, and a superb tag team wrestler. His 2001 run is up there with the greatest single years of any competitor ever, and he really was consistent up until his body finally quit on him. Oh, and he's one of two biggest draws ever on top of that.

    2. Hulk Hogan: Yeah, Hulk fucking Hogan. Sure, he was never Ricky Steamboat in the ring, but he never had to be. He stepped his game up when he really needed to, and I think people tend to not put enough importance on the showmanship aspect of the match rather than the MOVES~ and whatnot. The guy made for some of the most historic moments in wrestling history, and just watching the guy do what he did was a spectacle. Also, when the business changed and his hero gimmick ran its course, he completely reinvented himself and brought another company to the top. Basically, the guy was one of the major catalysts in both of the wrestling booms during the modern era. Sure, he had some bad matches. Some really bad matches. But he also worked with some seriously shitty opponents. If he got the Angle treatment and was able to work with guys like HBK, Joe, HHH, Rock, Benoit, Jericho, etc. every night during his prime instead of King Kong Bundy, Earthquake, or a broken down Andre the Giant, I can guarantee he would be regarded much more highly as a wrestler. Shit, the dude got a great match out of the fucking Ultimate Warrior. Also, he made a fucking fuckton of money, and that's really what it's all about.

    3. Shawn Michaels: He's not the draw that Austin or Hogan were, but he's been putting on great matches for over 20 years now (minus a few years in the late '90s/early '00s). He's adapted himself to the Rock 'n Wrestling era, the New Generation era, the Attitude era, and whatever the fuck it is now era. He's underrated on the mic, especially as a heel, and can definitely be funny when he wants to. He's everything chop wants us to think Angle is, and more. And in the ring, he's got a case for best ever, period. And he was great against EVERYONE, not just the other upper-level workers. Finally, he's been everything a wrestler should be. A pill-popper. A cokehead. An egotistical fuck. A womanizer. A politician. A straight-up amoral scumbag. Sure, he's got the whole "born again" thing going on now, but we all know that deep down, the real HBK lives on.

    4. Ric Flair: Sure, he had a formula to his matches. But it worked in a big way. Also, dude is the best interview ever. No question. Probably the third biggest draw behind Hogan and Austin. Nobody ever has or ever will be at that high of a level for that long. The only things holding him back would be his dependence on the "Flair match" and the fact that his later work tarnished his in-ring legacy a bit. Still, I don't see how anyone could say Flair isn't in the top 5 of all time.

    5. Chris Jericho: I think people look at Bret as being a bigger deal because he was a main eventer when they started watching (or rose to that level during their early years of watching), but Jericho has been a top level guy for about as long as Bret was, if not longer. He might not be quite on Bret's level in the ring, but he's infinitely more entertaining than Bret ever was outside it. His current run is showing a depth to his character that Bret couldn't touch (he might have been awesome as a heel in '97, but it was still pretty generic stuff), and all the El Dandy references Bret could ever muster wouldn't hold a candle to Jericho at his comedic best. The best part is, Jericho is still getting better. Before last year, I wouldn't have considered Jericho a top five guy. But since he stepped his game up huge, I think he's in that league now.
    test
  7. abzinthe

    abzinthe let's get incredible.

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2008
    Messages:
    2,356
    Honorable Mentions:

    Eddie Guerrero: Almost everything I said about Jericho also goes for Eddie, except his career was cut short before he could reach that elite level. A few more years on top, and Eddie could have been top 5, although it's possible that he wouldn't have been able to handle that, as he actually asked to drop the title because it was taking a toll on him.

    Randy Savage: Underrated in the ring at his peak and awesome on the mic. It's kind of a Catch-22 for Savage because his later years prevent him from being considered based on in-ring abilities, because he was a shell of his former self in WCW, but if you didn't consider his WCW years and he was only a main event guy for a couple of years. Also doesn't help that he always has and always will be overshadowed by Hogan.

    Guys I didn't list for good reasons:
    Bret Hart: He's like HBK, minus the charisma and longevity, and an even bigger douchebag. Also, completely delusional, and not in the fun, entertaining way. Seriously overrated in the ring. Sure, Flair had a formula, but Bret's got the FIVE MOVES OF DOOOM. Nowhere near as good on the mic as some people want to believe. I'm not saying he's good, I'm just saying he's not on that "best of all time" level.

    Sting: I really think the only reason he's regarded as highly as he is, is because he's one of the few who never jumped from WCW to the WWF. He's not really great at anything, and he was always in the shadow of guys like Flair or Hogan. He only had a few really hot years, in the early '90s when Flair made him and he had his great feud with Vader, and then the NWO era which actually was all booking and had very little to do with Sting. Definitely one of those guys who's better as nostalgia than he ever really was in reality.

    Kurt Angle: already covered. Although I doubt that he'll be able to keep going for that much longer, if he has five more years at his current level (or is somehow able to make TNA a contender), I might consider him top five material.

    Taker: Like Sting, he's more a product of great booking and loyalty to one company. He's actually developed into a decent worker over the last five years or so, but he's not good enough to be considered as one of the best ever based on that. He's also never really been THE top guy, and the times he's been highest on the card were generally the lowest points for the company.

    Triple H: Seriously inconsistent in the ring, and many of his better matches is overrated as it is. Isn't enough of a draw to warrant the booking he gets, which actually does more harm than good for the business overall. Good on the mic, but not great, and tends to do more harm than good a lot of the time, burying guys while not getting himself over any more than he already is.


    Guys with all-time great potential:

    Edge: The only things holding him back are his questionable ability to play babyface for an extended period and his reliance on a female companion to get heat. Still, he's one of the best heels they've got, he's got a good ten years of quality matches and staying over, and he seems to have plenty of time left.

    John Cena: He's not making Hogan money (not yet, anyway), but he's also better in the ring than Hogan ever was. He gets good matches out of guys he shouldn't be able to have good matches with, and he has fantastic matches when he actually has a good opponent. Yeah, he gets some boos. But people PAY MONEY to boo him. That's his biggest attribute, people might not all like him, but they all CARE one way or another. That's over. I'm not sure he'll ever pass Austin on my list (unless he's responsible for a boom period at some point), but if he keeps making money AND putting on great matches, he could catch Hogan.

    Randy Orton: He's one of the best guys out there overall, and like Cena, he's got tons of time left. If they play their cards right (and don't blow it like they did in '04), he could be huge when he finally turns face. For now, he's one of the best heels they've got (just behind Edge and Jericho). In 10 years (or less, depending on how big of a star he becomes), he could potentially be in that 4-5 spot of my list. Not sure if he's got what it takes to crack the top three though.

    C.M. Punk: More of a longshot, but given the right opportunity, this guy could be huge. He's got "it", and he backs it up in the ring.
    test
  8. abzinthe

    abzinthe let's get incredible.

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2008
    Messages:
    2,356
    lol @ those posts.

    sorry guys, i was bored.
    test
  9. Maca.

    Maca. Cachorro Louco

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2008
    Messages:
    849
    Good addition with Hulk Hogan, but as you might expect, I gotta argue for Bret.

    That five moves of doom formula Flair presented in his book is a bit of a fabrication. Sure, he liked to chain those moves together because it's like watching an opponent get picked apart bit by bit, but if you watch his matches they didn't all end like that. Maybe as many as 25% of them finished in that fashion, but I doubt it.

    Actually, most of his matches ended in ingenious twists. Watch the WM13 finish against Stone Cold (bret's idea), watch the match against Nash, both matches against Bulldog, the matches with Owen, WM against Shawn, even the Goldberg skit in WCW. He was a creative storyteller in wrestling boots. Plus let's not forget the opponents he had to work with. Usually big guys with silly gimmicks. Easily one of the best ever at telling a story.

    his biggest faults:

    - not the biggest draw (to be fair, not many people could've been a draw during post-hogan scandal WWF. Shit was a cartoon.)

    - He was unable/unwilling to adjust to the attitude era. I wouldn't say he didn't have charisma, but more like the entertaining older womanizer at the bar kind.

    - From what I've read, he was almost certainly less innocent backstage then what he's painted as these days. Like the refusal to drop the belt at Montreal. I know that he probably genuinely just didn't want to drop it to Shawn because Shawn was a dick, but it wasn't really his choice to make. Basically, he took himself and his legacy a little too seriously.

    - His booker t insults in WCW were pretty racist.

    I really think Bret spent the majority of his career in the wrong place at the wrong time. If he was healthy today, I believe he could easily do well with a "legend" spot in WWE a la Flair or HBK.
    test
  10. Maca.

    Maca. Cachorro Louco

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2008
    Messages:
    849
    I also don't really see Flair as the best interview ever. Even as far as the 80s style straight-faced interviews, I believe fellow horseman Arn was better. Later on he just woo'd, elbow dropped, strutted, and made people think he was going to have a heart attack. Almost every time he actually interacted with someone it was awkward. He got a reaction by doing those things, but the only thing it really sold was ric flair rather than any angles he was participating in. Quick, name a good feud he had in WWE.

    Only ones worth a mention are with his backstage friends.

    He seems to be a douche backstage, especially when he had power and influence, which was most of his WCW tenure. I don't buy that he was the totally innocent party during the WCW scandals, I think he just disliked not being the absolute top dog.

    Let's not forget that he also got lost in the shuffle during the nwo/attitude era, and even prior to that. He was in limbo bouncing from WWF to WCW because he wasn't the biggest draw.

    Although I will admit that he was a solid worker. Formulaic and overrated, but still better than 75% of guys out there.
    test
  11. Maca.

    Maca. Cachorro Louco

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2008
    Messages:
    849
    Ha.

    I'm watching twelve monkeys on megavideo, and after watching 75 minutes it makes you wait about a full hour to finish it.
    test
  12. abzinthe

    abzinthe let's get incredible.

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2008
    Messages:
    2,356
    flair getting lost in the shuffle wasn't really all his fault, and even when wcw tried to bury him, he'd have crowds chanting for him if he wasn't on the show. his interviews did slip during the later years of wcw, but he found his interview mojo again when he was in wwe. a few down years isn't enough to really take too much away from him, although it probably would make the difference between being 3 and 4 on my list.

    sure, flair didn't have many great feuds in wwe, but name a great bret hart feud in wcw. it seemed like outside of the owen tribute match against benoit, bret was pretty much phoning it in for his entire run. and really, even in the wwf, he did have a tendency to half-ass it unless he was in a big match (which is where most of the "ingenious twist endings" you're talking about happened. didn't almost all of those just lead to some sort of roll-up?) really, another area where shawn gets the edge over bret is that unless shawn was throwing a fit over something like the hogan match a few years ago, it seems like he's always on, while bret only really brought it for big matches. early ric is in the shawn category, because really in the pre-ppv era, every night was a big night. he definitely started phoning it in during the nitro era though, and i couldn't even try to claim otherwise.

    and of course flair was a douche backstage, all the greats are. but at least he didn't have ridiculous delusions of being some sort of hero whose reputation shouldn't be tarnished by being forced into villainy like bret seemed to have around the time of the wrestling with shadows documentary. i really lost a lot of respect for bret after watching that. and yeah, his whole obsession with not jobbing in canada was ridiculous. sure flair refused to put luger over right before he left wcw in '91 or whatever, but refusing to job the title to a guy who's not ready to carry the strap makes a lot more sense than "i can't job in canada because i'm a hero".

    also, the claim of him "bouncing around between wwf and wcw because he wasn't the biggest draw" is pretty ridiculous, considering wcw hit bottom after he left and the first main event after he left bombed horribly with the whole crowd chanting for flair rather than giving a shit about the match. flair was the go-to guy whenever wcw needed bailing out, and considering how often that was, his treatment showed that he was really underappreciated. they tried to replace him numerous times, but the fans wouldn't have it. meanwhile, did anyone REALLY miss bret when he left the wwf? what you see as "he spent his career in the wrong place at the wrong time" i see as him never really being able to adapt to situations, and instead expecting the situation to adapt to him. he was talented, sure, but he's also delusional and stubborn, and willingness and ability to adapt is one of the most important qualities for being an elite performer, which is something i've never seen in bret.
    test
  13. abzinthe

    abzinthe let's get incredible.

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2008
    Messages:
    2,356
    i don't hate bret hart or anything, by the way. i really like a lot of his matches. i just don't think a few years of good main events in front of half-empty arenas qualifies someone to be the best ever. and he's the anti-hogan as far as bringing a company to the top, since he pretty much left one company just as it was about to rise to the top and hopped aboard the sinking ship.
    test
  14. abzinthe

    abzinthe let's get incredible.

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2008
    Messages:
    2,356
    oh, and i'd heard the five moves of doom thing long before flair's book came out. i really think him forcing those same moves all in a row into every match took a lot way from otherwise creative stories.
    test
  15. xX_NASTY_Xx

    xX_NASTY_Xx Guest

    No Rock? Boooooooo
    test
  16. xX_NASTY_Xx

    xX_NASTY_Xx Guest

    Bret Hart pwns the run-on sentence
    test
  17. can you say stone cold?
    test
  18. Langford

    Langford New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 4, 2008
    Messages:
    11,137
    definitely wouldn't put hogan over flair, but good list from abz.
    test
  19. abzinthe

    abzinthe let's get incredible.

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2008
    Messages:
    2,356
    not with overrated in the same sentence, no.
    test
  20. Mac Sabbath

    Mac Sabbath New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2005
    Messages:
    9,777
    I agree with a lot of things you've said. And honestly, I was defending Bret's in-ring ability moreso than his claim as one of the top guns. All things considered, I'd probably put Eddie over Bret on the pound for pound list. But as far as between bells, I truly think he was one of the greats.

    But couldn't this be attributed to the fact that he was the WCW guy for so long, kinda like Sting? I mean, he was much better than Sting all around, but still he always thrived only in the shadows of Hogan era WWF.

    Look at how he did during his first stint in WWF in terms of putting asses in seats. He did better than his old nwa counterparts (Harley Race) but he still couldn't be relied upon to carry a wrestlemania. It was similar to the ECW main eventers going elsewhere and flopping, only with more name recognition. He was doomed to be the big fish in the small pond until Vinny put over his legacy on WWE programming. So sure WCW lost value, but WWF certainly didn't gain it.

    and I don't hate Ric Flair, either. I actually think he's really good, maybe even worthy of top five or ten. But I think people really idealize his career. He was a charismatic guy put over by the greats that never really put anyone over himself. Yet somehow, it's always said that he made people look great all the time.
    test
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)