Give a legitimate case/argument against 2pac as the GOAT

Discussion in 'Hip-Hop Central' started by Juked, Feb 18, 2010.

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  1. SpAnKy

    SpAnKy 플레이보이

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    I would have thought you could have inferred that when I said I felt 2pac was mediocre. Keeping me up for days? No, I didn't have to work today due to some holiday so I was free to reply between my Dawkins watching. Of course I'm going to put MY 'spin' on it, why would I take on your viewpoint when I clearly don't disagree.

    Wait, so you're basically saying everyone that mentions money, women, faith in a song pertains to everyone? Well for one, you're wrong. I don't believe in a faith, I believe in science and Evolution. Secondly, you're basically making a blanket statement about everyone that listens to music. Just because people make money, have families and friends, does not automatically mean whatever 2pac is saying is relevant to their lives.
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  2. SpAnKy

    SpAnKy 플레이보이

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    Narrow-minded? Yes. A prick? Yes. A brilliant scientist with provocative ideas with facts behind them? Yes. He's not the only person I read, but he's the most out-spoken and poignant.
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  3. Mo_Scrilla31

    Mo_Scrilla31 New Member

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    Yes it does. If 2Pac has a song about a friend that died, and you lost a friend... it's relavant. If 2Pac has a song about holding onto ones' faith, and you're struggling with yours... it's relevant. If 2Pac has a song about being poor and growing up in harsh conditions, and you can relate... it's relevant. If 2Pac has a song about fuckin a bitch raw, and you just got done bustin a nut... it's relevant.

    It don't matter who you are or where you're from. Why do so many people like The Godfather? Is it because they're all in the mafia? No. It's because they can relate to the characters, the family, and the relationships they have with one another. They can identify with them.
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  4. SpAnKy

    SpAnKy 플레이보이

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    Like I said before, there's a plethora of people making songs about everything imaginable. Does that mean it is relevant to my life? No, it does not. My definition of relevant means something that is actually applicable to my daily life. Listening to 2pac rap about his mother's troubles, his encounters with the police, pouring out liquor for dead friends, or anything else he raps about does not have an impact on my life.

    Rappers that I can relate to and I find relevant? Sage Francis, Atmosphere, Cage.

    I think you're going off track here. So, Christianity speaks about family, friends, and everything under the sun. Is that relevant to me in the sense they're talking about? No. Just like the way 2pac expresses his sentiments, they have nothing to do with me as a human being.

    If 2pac speaks to you on some level that nobody else can and his issues he deals with through rap are meaningful to you, more power to you.
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  5. NinjaMic

    NinjaMic Brian Disease

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    How can you not believe in faith, but believe in science, when believing something is having faith in it. All science is undone by the leap of faith taken in what we do not yet know, and that our proof is really only the construct of our own fallible minds that are only proven to exist by a leap of faith that we accept in ourselves - I think therefore I am. The proof of science is unproven... 1 + 1 equals 2 only because it seems to be true, not because it actually does. Underneath the face value of 1 and 2 there is the atomic and subatomic levels where 1 object is actually millions, trillions, and on and on - we do not know, cannot know, and never will know but we have faith that striving to know is noble and just, and will better mankind or at least serve to keep our own mortal fear of the unknown at bay for the duration of our lives.

    This is my decade old answer to anything Richard Dawkins has said -

    [youtube]iJAzipj0i7g[/youtube] It's very offbeat, the quality is crap, but the words are what they are.
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  6. SpAnKy

    SpAnKy 플레이보이

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    Easy, people don't like their 'faith' tested. Yet, science is proves and disproves things with logical reasoning, not a scripture that never changes. That's why science is a great thing; One can do extensive research and fail, fail, fail, and fail, but using various methods, come to a solid conclusion. You say 'leap of faith' and that's all people that believe in Creationsim have. A BLIND leap of faith. So you're saying it's better to believe in something just because science cannot disprove it? On the other hand, that's like saying I believe in (To use a Dawkins analogy) a teapot that circles the sun. Just because nobody can prove or disprove it, do I automatically believe it to be true?

    What makes science so great is that it CAN prove things. The 'theory' of Evolution should really be changed, because it's not really a theory. What EVIDENCE do you have for there being a supernatural power? Your 'leap of faith?'

    I'll take the high road and stick with evidence instead of blindly believing in something that has no evidence to back it up.

    As a rational human being, I am not willing to just openly accept the belief of a deity just because it's instilled in our culture. The whole argument that people that do believe is, is one that says 'Well if you can't disprove it, it must be true.'

    Really?

    Many people have 'faith'

    Some blow up buildings/people because they have 'faith' in their god.

    For some reason your flow on this reminds me of 'Nature of The Threat'
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  7. NinjaMic

    NinjaMic Brian Disease

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    I like my faith tested and none of it is based on any scripture of any sort - faith and religion are not bound, even though they cross paths as science and religion once did with both things evolving out of man's never ending need to quantify and understand his reality to feel safe despite his own mortality and eternal lack of true understanding outside of his own self, let alone within his own mind. Fear created the observation of patterns which lead to both mathematical thought and spiritual thought.

    When I am tested, broken, and still standing in the aftermath. It makes my resolve stronger when the dust settles. What evidence do I have that a supernatural being exists? "it" doesn't, but that's what the song was about. "the opposite of existence"

    What evidence does a scientist have that he exists? The fact I can see him, hear him? I feel things and witness things that give me reason to follow my gut instincts and the paths I choose to walk. To me, perception is delusion, as human perception of matter is a fallacy, skewed, flawed, biased, and unproven it can hold no more credibility to me than whatever a man chooses to believe or imagine. It's egotistical to think that what we perceive and observe as patterns is what actually is there... much like poetry, in how any meaning can be extrapolated from cryptic words depending on the reader, when the authors intents are truly unknown to anyone but the author.

    I'm not an "old man in the sky" type of person, nor am I a "we are the alpha and omega" type of person.
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  8. Break_Bread

    Break_Bread *TheTwinkleInUrGirlsEye*

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    you know Spanky im just not too sure, but im sure you would know this. What was that infamous little speach Darwin gave almost the last words on his deathbed?

    Cmon, i know you know this.
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  9. SpAnKy

    SpAnKy 플레이보이

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    Actually, Dawkins addresses this in one of his interviews.

    He said on his deathbed he wants to have a tape recorder because it's widely believed that what people believe what Darwin hypothetically said was bullshit.

    So if you're asking if I believe it to be true? No, of course not. People will make up lies under any circumstances.



    Fast Forward to 5:45

    [youtube]4tRpbkpNpgw[/youtube]
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  10. NinjaMic

    NinjaMic Brian Disease

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    Many people have faith and believe in science... some slaughter fetuses, animals, spill blood, chop up jews and perform human experiments for the sake of furthering their cause as if it were a crusade that supercedes the important of a single life. Without many atrocities of science, our comfortable and opulent ways of life would not be so, without much of the horrible work done by Nazi scientists and artists in WW2, and around the world, we would not have the medical understanding of anatomy that we do now. The same holds true for the origins of surgery in brutish butchering performed by savage men, who could stomach the brutal and bloody procedures in the 17 and 1800's when intellectuals would never sully themselves with such disgusting work.

    Religion and science, as human concepts, are eternally tied together, completely fallible, and are historically bloody, ignorant, and egotistical in their own ways.

    Faith and spirituality has about as much to do with the crusades and ignorant politicians and extremists as mathematics has to do with Dr Mengele.
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  11. SpAnKy

    SpAnKy 플레이보이

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    Sorry, didn't catch this part. Will reply in a bit...

    Okay, so just tell me why you do believe in a higher power. We haven't established that yet. I've told you why I do not believe, just like I don't believe in unicorns, the boogie man, and other mythical creatures. From what I've gathered, you believe because you do not see a strong enough argument to believe otherwise? You're a smart guy, why believe in something that has no evidence. How come when a crazy person claims they've spoken or seen 'god' we write them off as crazy, but when millions upon millions do it, we call it religion(I butchered the quote)

    Are you saying you believe the world is only 4,000 years old? That's a hard pill to swallow, especially when there's evidence that proves that to be false, yet, people still believe it.
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  12. Mo_Scrilla31

    Mo_Scrilla31 New Member

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    Yeah, but you just said it. A scientist can FAIL. Why? because science is bound by resources. Ages ago, scholars once thought the world was flat. Why is this? Because "logic" dictated it. They didn't yet possess the resources to further explore the idea, so the conclusion they came to was based on what they had observed themselves. We now know they were incorrect.

    It's all relative. How can you be sure we're so advanced now? I mean, really... how much do we really know? Take Natural Selection for example, which is almost an oxymoron in itself. Anything that's "selected", by definition, was done so by choice. We don't really know why humans have thumbs and dogs don't, yet scientists chalk it up to natural selection. Natural Selection isn't fact, it's theory... and like any other theory it's only as good as the resources available to support it. The truth is they don't know s***. They only call it "Natural Selection" cause that's the only way they know how to describe right now. Maybe hundreds of thousands of years from now, we'll have more answers... and for all we know those answers will lead us to an all powerful "selector" a.k.a. a supereme being a.k.a. God.
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  13. SpAnKy

    SpAnKy 플레이보이

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    Before I go to bed, The Theory of Evolution explains why we have thumbs and dogs do not.

    As for advancement? I would say that THROUGH science being able to cure disease, clone animals, travel to the moon are all excellent examples.

    If you really think there's some deity that did all that, then arguing with you is just wasting my time.

    On that note, I am off.
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  14. Mo_Scrilla31

    Mo_Scrilla31 New Member

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    No it doesn't. The "how's" and the "why's" are not the same. WHY were human beings given thumbs? WHY weren't dogs?

    WHY does a man feel sexually aroused when he's around a woman? WHY does my dick fit perfectly into that ho's snatch? WHY was Man built to be sexually compatible with Woman to create life?

    There's a design there. There's a harmony.

    Damn, you're really close minded. Take this scenario.

    Let's assume it's several thousands of years from now and we've become a super-intelligent species capable of highly advanced technology. Let's say we have the power to create life. You know, almost like a highly evolved android. It looks like a human and functions just like a human. Let's say we create a male and female android.

    Still with me? Good.

    Not only have we created the male and the female androids, we've also set aside for them an artificially created environment on a distant planet. We were able to replicate everything from the water all the way down to the air they breathe. Pretty much, everything on the planet was created by us for them to utilize. The water, the air, the atmosphere, the earth... everything.

    Hope you're still with me.

    Okay so we built these two androids and what not, and we built their planet. So we transport the lifeless creations onto the fake planet, leave them there, and take off. After we leave, we then "activate" the two androids and they wake up for the first time.

    Here's what I'm getting at.

    Those two androids will eventually procreate, and so on, and so on. It will take millions of years for a civilization, like ours now, to exist on that planet. It will take hundreds of thousands of years before they even know what "air" is and what "water" is. It will take them millions more to understand the periodic table of elements. But no matter what they learn, no matter what they think they know... ultimately they and everything around them was created by us. Their oxygen isn't natural. It was created by us. Their water isn't natural. It was created by us.

    So how long before their scientific research leads them to us? How long before they realize WE are behind everything?
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
    .

    The moral of the story? We don't know everything. Science is just our way of trying to figure out how the world around us works. The more we grow, the more we learn. The more we learn, the more we find out we were wrong. All we can do is theorize based on what we know NOW. A faucet with running water is common today, but if you took a time machine and brought one back millions of years ago they'd think you were a miracle worker or God himself. Who knows what we will be capable of in a million years? Who knows what we'll discover about ourselves and the world around us?

    In short, don't believe everything you see. Science isn't 100% fact.
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  15. THEDONN

    THEDONN One Love

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    hahaha this nigga dont believe in GOD or dont like 2pac, smh @ another alias of H_20

    smh
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  16. THEDONN

    THEDONN One Love

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    dead!!!!!!!!!

    this niggaz best rappers are

    Sage Francis, Atmosphere, Cage.


    i bet all 3 of them luv 2pac music, smh

    hahaha
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  17. .:Pain:.

    .:Pain:. Futurely J. Keeper

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    Well, I was gonna respond, but fuck it.

    Richard Dawkins is a jack-ass.

    I read that book.

    He had some interesting things in the first, say, hundred or so pages. After that, he just babbles and preaches...
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  18. THEDONN

    THEDONN One Love

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    no evidence????

    HAHAHAHAHAHAH

    dat shit is bugged out man..

    the air u breathe is a miracle
    u a miracle

    smh at thinkin you're life is an accident

    gay ass nigga
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  19. vandalism

    vandalism the king

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    lol @ this nigga saying "you are a miracle"


    gay ass nigga
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  20. Anonmuz

    Anonmuz Decepticons = Truth

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    Lol, this lame spanky obviously isn't using that BS he got cause he got all the time in the world to respond to every post.
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