Give a legitimate case/argument against 2pac as the GOAT

Discussion in 'Hip-Hop Central' started by Juked, Feb 18, 2010.

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  1. Juked

    Juked like 20 of the Lions.

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    First off, 2pac is not my favorite rapper, probably not even in my top 5, however I find it very difficult to provide a substantial case for any other rapper being the GOAT because of 2pac.

    Some of the common candidates for GOAT:

    1. Jay-Z

    Arguments For: I often hear consistency over so a long period of time and versatility. I agree these are two of the major arguments I would go with too however 2pac, during the time he was given, was just as consistent in terms of volume and arguably came out with stuff of much higher quality.

    2. Nas

    Same argument

    3. Eminem

    Eminem is a better lyricist
    2pac is a better rapper




    I dont want to make this an essay so i'll jump to my final point. The reason I am posting this is because I surprised myself when I randomly stumbled upon the question of how would I introduce hip-hop to someone ignorant to it all way off on in the future when all these other rappers are long gone. When I thought about it 2pac was the answer, unquestionably.

    Diss Tracks: Hit Em Up
    Emotion: Dear Mama, Pain, Wonder why they call you bitch
    Party Songs: California Love, Gangsta Party
    Passion: Changes, well fuck all his songs have passion.

    All these songs are the premier rap songs of their respective categories....While the other rappers might have better mechanics, lyricism, etc. No one them embody rap more than the man named tupac shakur
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  2. sardo

    sardo THE ILLEST

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    good read.
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  3. Kal-EL

    Kal-EL Krazed Familia

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    It's between 2pac and Eminem for me. My opinion changes with how I'm feeling at the moment. But if I'm feeling like it's Eminem, and someone said Pac, I wouldn't argue.

    I honestly DONT see how niggaz could say it's ANYBODY but 2pac though. I can't fathom it.
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  4. SpAnKy

    SpAnKy 플레이보이

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    Nobody cares.

    2pac sucks.
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  5. Halfway_Crook

    Halfway_Crook Well-Known Member

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    It's just a matter of taste for me. Don't like his one-dimensional flow. I like unpredictable shit.
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  6. THEDONN

    THEDONN One Love

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    2pac is #1

    biggie is #2

    jayz, nas # 3

    em, wayne, jada # 4

    big L, big Pun, outkast, mobb deep, bone thugsd, wutang, snoop, etc

    falls under

    PERIOD!
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  7. NinjaMic

    NinjaMic Brian Disease

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    I'll give my case.

    An incredibly gifted mind, a multi talented person who touched upon so many subjects with the utmost sincerity, sympathy, and empathy and bared his soul openly and honestly on almost every song, but still remained guarded and combative... true to hip-hop's roots of expression, poetry, but also in brotherhood where strength of character and the Heartz of Men is displayed through written word.

    I feel that Pac was very underrated as a lyricist simply for the fact that he never used outlandish or far fetched concepts for simile and metaphor, or rhymed words that sacrifice the integrity of his ideas and meanings by scouring a thesaurus or dictionary to find what fits... whatever words Pac spoke, were learned in his youth and in his life. There were no heat seeking missiles, Columbian cartels and Spanish villas, or metaphors from mars... just a man and his mind, a powerful voice, a presence that was almost impossible to dominate, and a mind that was a myriad of varying experiences originated from a past and bloodline that was as interesting, cultural, raw, and dynamic as his own music was.

    Pac's balance of political flair, social consciousness, gangsta, speaking for the down trodden, reaching out to those who suffer, sticking it to the man, never backing down, always speaking his mind, being introspective and vulnerable while also powerful and assertive, is the definition of realism and balance. His flow was always a nice groove, his mind was always on a higher calling when he spoke or wrote, and his work ethic has only been rivaled in recent history by Lil Wayne.

    The man is a perfect example of falling victim to the media, being juxtaposed as a criminal simply for being black and being hip-hop, and also for being an educated black man that's Amerikkka's worst nightmare. His life story is so broadly known and well documented, and interesting even without the music, he's loved in 3rd world countries by the most extreme and impoverished of people (ever see the movie Ghosts of Babylon?) and spoke to everyone in every way he was capable of. His presence in film is immortal as hip-hop history, broke down walls, and he is one of the few actors that came from the hip-hop world with any chops whatsoever.

    He has his dark secret, his shady past, and his controversy... but all that only adds weight to how big of a topic he is. So many people awaited his hopeful return in 7 years, as delusional as it was, and still wish for him to have lived out his years and gone on to do more great things. He's the voice of a generation, the voice of the street, the voice of prisoners, the voice of the feared and hated, the voice of rape victims, the voice of the persecuted and poor, and a voice for hip-hop for all time, and a voice for himself. His music is timeless, as emotion and thought never show their age, and he died by living the life of an artist, who said too much, and who did too much too soon.

    Nobody else can claim this, no matter how complex their lyrics, no matter how rich they get, or how deep and profound they make their 9th or 10th album. Even new acts that come out with reality and depth in their first years... imitation is the highest form of flattery, and without a high profile example in the mainstream to cause such a chain reaction through artists and listeners to appreciate more, and be more soulful and balanced... perhaps nobody would aspire to be an artist with a voice who speaks their true feelings and thoughts in hip-hop.
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  8. THEDONN

    THEDONN One Love

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  9. vandalism

    vandalism the king

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    niggas need to stop writin so much, nobody gon read it


    pac is dope, he up there, but he a bit one-dimensional. you could switch around the verses on 90% of his tracks and it wouldn't make a difference.
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  10. NinjaMic

    NinjaMic Brian Disease

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    ^that's true for every single legitimate GOAT candidate. They all talk the same shit when they're not on concept track, or concept album, which few ever are ('cept Nas, and sometimes Rakim, or Em if people allow him in). Kool G always spits gangsta shit with multis, Rakim always spits about himself or cool shit about math and allah, Jay-Z always talks about himself, money, bitches, gangsta shit, or how he came up and his pops left him or something.

    None of them really talk about anything out of their comfort zone, or do much other than rhyme as nicely as possible on unrelated tangents... you could take Nas verse on Verbal Intercourse, take his verse from Live Nigga Rap, and a verse from What Goes around and it'd all fit together nicely too... 'cause stylistically he's always just saying some weird, slightly poetic, somewhat deep, nicely rhymed stuff.

    Unless you get into maybe an artist like Tonedeff, or the obscure backpack rappers that everyone here 'hates/disagrees on/isn't really impactive enough to be a GOAT' and would be laughable candidates for GOAT, you're really not going to find much diversity in concepts, styles, flows, and ideas from track to track and album to album.

    ...and man, all I did was state my case from beginning to end, no need to get a dig in about it. Instead of saying "yeah pac's dope" then waiting for someone to say "no his lyrics suck" then responding to that, then them saying "well his flow sucks" then responding to that, and them saying "he's fake" then going on and on for 6 pages... I just do it in one post, as a complete thought.

    Y'all know me, I've been typin' too much since day one haha
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  11. thedream233

    thedream233 Thrillmatic

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    thats bullshit. dont confuse his real songs with the bullshit tracks released after he died. He was far from one dimensional.
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  12. THEDONN

    THEDONN One Love

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    pac had club shit, gyrl shit, world shit, story tales, deep shit

    nobody use the ink like pac
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  13. Ignorant

    Ignorant Village Idiot

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    I didn't always like Pac's ALBUMS... I would have a hard time calling any one of his albums released during his lifetime "classic"... now he had classic SONGS, but albums are a different story... I find myself hittin' the FF button on ALL of his albums.

    The 7 Day Theory was probably his most passionate album, but is it classic? I don't know... maybe because it was his last and most passionate... but I need more technique and cohesion to call something classic... emotion alone don't cut it.

    I liked that double album he did, but it had a lot of filler.

    See, as I go down the list... I find something wrong with every last one of his albums... that's the major problem I have with Pac... he never released that PERFECT album... like an Illmatic or Paid In Full or Ready To Die.

    And nobody had a more poor selection of beats than Pac... he beats Nas, Jay Z, and Eminem on that in a BIG way.

    He was a great writer, intriguing mind, great rapper, etc... but the albums and the beats hold him back, IMO.
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  14. Anonmuz

    Anonmuz Decepticons = Truth

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    Muthafuckaz need to stop trying to put Em's ass on the GOAT list, if Em's somewhere on there, the you heads need to put Canibus on there 20 spots ahead of Em' cause Bus is 10x's more lyrical then Em.
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  15. Ignorant

    Ignorant Village Idiot

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    Em has the same issue as Pac, to me... mediocre albums.

    Canibus, too... he wouldn't make my top 50.
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  16. Anonmuz

    Anonmuz Decepticons = Truth

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    I only liked a few track from Canibus but his content, choice of words and everything else is way more lyrical than anything Em's done.

    I agree with you on the mediocre albums
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  17. Mo_Scrilla31

    Mo_Scrilla31 New Member

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    This. Exactly this.

    Although Pac was never as lethal a lyricist as some of his peers during that time period, his flow was always good enough. He rarely, if ever, used similes and punchlines but that's because he was always able to paint a vivid enough picture without using them in the first place. His lyrics were poetic, yet still always straight to the point.

    As long as the flow is tight, no one cares... and Pac always had flow.

    And every breath I breathe
    until the moment I'm deceased
    will be another moment ballin' as a 'G'
    I rip the crowd, then I start again
    Eternally I live in sin
    until the moment that they let me breathe again
    The heartz of men


    Shit is butter.

    If there's one thing 2Pac has on just about everybody, it's the perspective of his music. Some of his shit is on so high a level that I don't think we've seen an artist since that's been able to reach it. Dude literally came you from every angle. 2Pas was very wise beyond his years, probably more so than anybody.

    Proclaiming a G.O.A.T. is silly though because there's too many different aspects and criteras to base it on. 2Pac is certainly the most iconic and one the most unique Hip-Hop artists of all time... let's just leave it at that.
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  18. NinjaMic

    NinjaMic Brian Disease

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    I agree with AEOM, but after years, the only track I'm really not feeling at all is Whatz Ya Phone # to this day... otherwise, most of the tracks I glazed over, are some of my favorite cuts from the album, whereas the more bangable "hit" sounding one's like U Cant See Me, California Love, and All About U kinda wore off over the years.

    Makaveli is definitely his most perfect album to me, but I see the lack of real focus on rhyming ability over the content and emotion, as his most passionate and focused and RAW work. It feels like 2 Pac posessed by ODB, or the way that Nas arguably slacked on his structure and "It Was Written" style schematics to produce a much more cohesive and important album.

    Not tryin' to change your mind, but that's why I call it classic... I could never not have that album in my top 10 or at least regular rotation. It got me through alot of hard times in life, long after it's release, on long cold commuter rides, road trips living in shithole neighborhoods and working fucked up jobs etc
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  19. NinjaMic

    NinjaMic Brian Disease

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    "convinced that this is my YEAR like I'm the chosen man!"
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  20. Imposter

    Imposter New Member

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    They claimed that he was violent
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