free will and the biblical narrative

Discussion in 'The Sanctuary' started by reggie_jax, Jan 1, 2011.

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  1. reggie_jax

    reggie_jax rapper noyd

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    can free will and god both manage to exist and make sense?

    if god is our creator then he designed everything about us.. even if he doesn't play a direct role in creating each human he still individually shaped human nature, and with it our destiny.

    personally i don't believe in free will. everything you do/say/think is a product of your nature. your nature is either a product of god or a product of evolution, depending on which team you pick.

    either way, if it's god then free will makes even less sense since there was a willful design on his part, nothing 'accidental'.

    so how can we balance the idea of free will with the biblical narrative?

    adam and eve were put in the garden and given a test. the bible doesnt say anything about free will, as far as i know, but the general belief i encounter seems to be that god gave them free will prior to the test.

    but how is this possible? god knew their nature inside out, since he created them. he knew their nature before he ever created them because he is all knowing, yet he created them anyway knowing that human nature is flawed and that we would inevitably fall short of the expectations given to us.

    if you create a computer, and you design a complex algorithm that generates seemingly random answers to questions, have you just designed a machine with free will? no. the computer does as it is programmed to do, and so do humans.
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  2. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    Freewill is more about frewill to make your own choices amongst many circumstances which each will cause i different reaction once the choice is made. I dont nessicarily see how thats in dispute.
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  3. M-theory

    M-theory Saint Esprit

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    It is in our nature to have free will, therefore every product of our nature is defined by free will. You've already made the jump to say that you don't believe in free will, therefore you do not see that everything we do/say/think is a product of free will which is in our nature that you describe as impacting everything we do/say/think.
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  4. reggie_jax

    reggie_jax rapper noyd

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    the dispute is not in the choices themselves but in how they are made

    we have the illusion of free will because like you said we actively make decisions on a regular basis. which is definitely will. but is it free will? that implies it is completely unrestrained. reality paints a different picture: human nature is heavily predictable. we are driven by our survival instinct to make these decisions so we have that cognitive ability but whatever we choose is based largely on who we are. whatever option looks best to you, you choose. but you don't actually get to decide which option looks best to you.

    it becomes especially complicated when you introduce the idea of an omnipotent willful creator. necessarily his will must outweigh ours. he can create a being that will obey him. he can create a being that will disobey him. but can he create a being that he does not know how it will act or what it will choose to do? that would require ignorance on his part. that is impossible.
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  5. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    well put.
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  6. reggie_jax

    reggie_jax rapper noyd

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    i don't think free will is in our nature, it's a concept we invented. it is in our nature to have a will, but do we really control that drive? i don't think so.
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  7. M-theory

    M-theory Saint Esprit

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    It implies being completely unrestrained? God's will is unrestrained by us. Our will is unrestrained by God. Your will is unrestrained by me. My will is unrestrained by you. Because our wills are unrestrained by anything but that of the Self which is myself, and yourself, that are not the same Self... they fall under 'free will' - you consider that a misnomer? Not even God will choose to go against his own Self will. The difference between his will and our will is that his will is said to be unchanging, whereas our will changes often based on our gain of knowledge, experience, power, etc.

    OK, so what if we are predictable? What if we are driven by our instincts, and choose based on what out cognition offers to us? That doesn't stop me from having my own free will that is not subjected to your control, the next guy's control, my doctor's control, God's control, etc. And by this, I am not suggesting that it is not impossible for intervention to take place so that one is subject to outside control - but in our natural state we have perfect freedom to express our own will and not anybody else's.

    I do find this interesting. I've been talking mostly on the basis of free will itself as you said you don't believe we truly have it - which I think the differences we have are really in how we've made up our minds to define it.

    I'll thinker harder about this bit though and see if I come up with anything - because I don't want to sit here on one subject for too long.
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  8. M-theory

    M-theory Saint Esprit

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    Control? I don't know how much control we have. I think nothing outside of myself can force my will one way or the other though. I at least see that as free will.
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  9. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    We define who we are by the truths we decide is truth to us. We live by our definition of ourselves which in turn effects the choices we make but its still our choice to begin with
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  10. reggie_jax

    reggie_jax rapper noyd

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    i think you might be right (bolded section). i feel like maybe i'm not really articulating this the way i want to, so let me give it another go:

    i can't control you, and you can't control me, that much is obvious. but the idea of free will as i picture it is on the opposite side of the spectrum from determinism. basically, having the ability to shape your own destiny with the choices you make vs being on a set path.

    now i don't believe in strict determinism either, basically i believe that both of these concepts are ideals which exist only in a vacuum, and that reality contains a little of both, in less severe forms. free will is simply will, and determinism boils down to circumstance.

    basically i think that people are on loosely traced paths based on relatively predictable trends in behavior and that along the way out of mere circumstance decisions must be made. the questions presented are usually multiple choice and you don't get to pick the options. one of the options will always make the most sense to you or be the most appealing for reasons that are out of your control.

    how does this relate to god/the bible? well, when you consider easy choices like what flavor ice cream you want, it's easy to think you have free will. but if you're deciding whether to accept jesus as your personal lord and savior, it's not that simple. you can't simply 'will' yourself to believe something. either you do or you don't.

    and eve and the apple also raises an interesting question about 'original sin'. how is it possible for god to create eve, to construct her nature and her cognitive process by hand and not know exactly what choices she would make? here in the human world, free will seems relatively self evident because none of us are advanced enough to read someone inside out like that, but any god that caused the big bang is advanced beyond our comprehension. there's simply no way to 'create a being with free will.' when we thought up that concept, we had a limited understanding of our own cognitive process which allowed some exaggerated ideals to be interpreted as reality.

    keep in mind this is all just based on shit i've read/thought about while bored at work. i am not pretending to know any of this as a fact. just a theory i adopted.
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  11. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    I know what your getting at. If God knows everything he know the outcome of our lives and wether or not we make the "correct" decisions so if he already knows u think we cant have freewill as we define it. But just cus he may know doesnt mean we arent free to choose.
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  12. reggie_jax

    reggie_jax rapper noyd

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    but since he made us he had to have the knowledge at the time as well. so he deliberately designed us knowing the outcome ahead of time.
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  13. Sir Bustalot

    Sir Bustalot I am Jesus

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    i think Morgan Freeman would make a great biblical narrator

    ;)
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  14. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    Uppin for steve. Theres another discussion we had on the topic in introspectrum.
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  15. The Steve

    The Steve Space monkey I am not

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    Bingo!

    And this is where the thread ended :funny:
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  16. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    Pffft. It didnt end cus he stumped anyone lol.
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  17. The Steve

    The Steve Space monkey I am not

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    :funny::funny::funny:

    Did you graduate HS?
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  18. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    College as well tardo. What r u just here to make stupid comments or u going to add something relevent to any conversation. Its been 2 days and you ducked 3 thread topics now.
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  19. The Steve

    The Steve Space monkey I am not

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    In one sentence you say God knows the outcome, and in the next say we're still free to choose.

    THERE'S NO CHOICE IN PRE-DETERMINED EVENTS.

    You, are, fucking, retarded.
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  20. The Steve

    The Steve Space monkey I am not

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    And which threads have I ducked? I see you disappearing from them, me not so much.

    I upped the 'Is jesus the only way to heaven' thread since you've been a no-show bitch.
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