For women who don't think the husband is the "head" of the marriage...

Discussion in 'Ladies Lounge' started by Ignorant, Nov 13, 2005.

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  1. Ahh I see, and I agree with you. In that kind of circumstance it is the guys fault, because he is being decepetive. It is sad when something like that comes between a good friendship. But, I was talking about when women just downplay other women to get ahead and that it's not always the guys fault. I am always dubious when women tell me they dont really get on with other women or keep company with them much.

    it makes me go hmm...
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  2. 81sweetness

    81sweetness brunette's do it best!

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    We as women should accept the vows in their traditional form because the man does become the head of the household whether we like it or not and if we can't understand his drive to be that, then we shouldn't get married. my best friend is about to get divorced because all she does is try to control her man and make him feel like he's not the head of the household. they split up everything especially money and never make decisions together anymore. i don't want that in my marriage. i want to listen and also be listened to, so I don't mind if the vows tells us to "obey" because like my father, I will respect my hubby enough to submit that role to him. If he was not fit to take on that role i would not marry him. change is good but role reversal is bad. good topic.
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  3. Ignorant

    Ignorant Village Idiot

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    ^^"Who can find a virtuous woman? For her weight is worth more than rubies."
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  4. samii so sexii

    samii so sexii ..sunkist siren..

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    sweetness -- i can not disagree any more...tradition is not always good. and comparing the role of your husband to that of your father is in my opinion very skewed. Your father raises you, and tells you what to do; teaches you. Your husband is your PARTNER in life after you have matured and have been raised. Now, I'm NOT saying that you should try to emasculate your man, and make him feel like he is not in charge or less of a "man", because you and I, as women with black men, both know (or should know) that they need that ego stroke lol jp. But what I am saying is that I am grown. I have a mind of my own, and I'm not going to do everything that my future husband says or dictates just because some obsolete vow says "obey". Now, I'm not saying that I wont get him a glass of water when he asks, cuz I know he would do the same for me (plus its not biggie). But, if it makes me uncomfortable, or if it's something that I strongly feel that I shouldn't have to do, I won't. I wouldn't ask any more of him, and I'm not property or a robot...I cant just make myself jump whenever he feels the need to say 'jump'.

    I stand firm by this: Marriage is the fusion of two people into one person (metaphorically)...there is no head. There should be no power struggle. You should move as one, and both be willing to do what is best for BOTH people in the relationship.

    very good thread indeed


    pz & <3
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  5. samii so sexii

    samii so sexii ..sunkist siren..

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    @ sweetness...i forgot to mention that i couldnt agree more with only SOME of your points...not the whole post....my bad lol
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  6. Phusion

    Phusion WoW This Name is Old

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    The man capable of taking the role of head, is and should be the head. One not able to do so is not fit to be in a marriage. The man should ALWAYS be the head, this shouldnt be the argument. The argument seems to be over what the responsibility of the head is and how much power the head has. Not the label. I'm pretty sure no so called independent woman would have the problem of a man being the head if the label had no power what so ever.

    anyway...

    The power struggle of fronting in front of your friends acting as if your mate doesnt have you in check is far worse than the power struggle a marriage can present. I cant stand a woman that fronts for there friends as if there man dont got them in check. And whats funny about it is that the "in check" part aint always the case. Its just made one when the mate wants to show out like "yea girl this nigga dont got me!". (I know this aint clear but hopefully yall got me)

    anyway that shits mad annoying.
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  7. tight-eyes

    tight-eyes Such a F*cking Lady!

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    if the label has "no power whatsoever", then what is the purpose for it..?
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  8. Phusion

    Phusion WoW This Name is Old

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    nothing thus you get my point why the independent type wouldnt have a problem with it.
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  9. tight-eyes

    tight-eyes Such a F*cking Lady!

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    I get the point you're making, but I disagree with. Reason being, I believe that men who insist on claiming that title do feel there is (at least an implied) power behind it... otherwise (again), what is the purpose for it..? I think it's an ego boost, to say the least, for a man to feel he has legitimate control/power over his wife.

    I guess we all have our issues... so it's whatever... I just wish men would be honest about it.
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  10. Ignorant

    Ignorant Village Idiot

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    I actually misquoted... it's "who can find a virtuous woman? For her price is far above rubies."


    And sami, get me some water, woman!
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  11. I agree with tighteous. You see, the men who claim that they must be the head, because they are the man, are trying to assert power in that traditional sense. Usually, they are the guys who say that woman's place should be only in the home cookin up the goodies, and keeping the children happy, etc etc.
    Tradition is often used to keep outdated modes of practice going, but it is contestable as to whether traditional modes of conduct are good for married couples these days. I say, that a man should not necesserily be deemed head of the household simply because he is a man, he should be able to lead, and fall back, just as the wife should. It is a joint partnership, there must be joint decisons, compromise, especially when it comes to children. I think alot of the head of the household ish comes up because some peeps are in need of some masculine ego strokin. some guys take pride in dominating women, and tradition is one way of making them fall in line.
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  12. tight-eyes

    tight-eyes Such a F*cking Lady!

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    word, Brit... we're --->here<---

    However, I don't necessarily agree that every man who insists on asserting himself as "head of the household" also feels that womens' places are necessarily in the home... some are just as, if not more, happy with their spouse working outside of the home (hell, thats more income for him to control), so long as he is still the one she defers to when she gets home.

    Though, I do agree that those men (hell, most people period) still expect the wives to be responsible for the lion's share of the domestic work around the house, including the rearing of the children... same line of thinking when people constantly tell women that they can't excel in both motherhood and their careers, as if there aren't two parents in that equation... I never hear people asking men how they manage to balance fatherhood and their careers, its just assumed that the mother she assume the most responsibility for raising the kids.
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  13. nah not every man, just that those who feel they have to make statements of 'im the head', usually are stating it as a symbol of male dominance in the domestic sphere, which inturn like a dominoe effect leads to other traditional roles of men and women, i.e, takin care of house, havin his slippers warmed by the fire..lol..ya dig?

    yea, and I feel a lot of women just accept that they will do most of the stuff around the house-- there is a clear divison of labour when it comes to washing, ironing, vaccuming, getting kids bathed etc. But also, a lot of women make out like guys just aren't cut out for it, the feel like they will get it done quicker by themselves, and plus some women do seem to be more domesticated, and infact pride themselves on being that way.

    In regard to careers and motherhood, it is difficult, I feel for women, to have both. You cant spend all day everyday at work and expect your kids not to be neglected, and househusbands, aren't being as popularised as a lot of people make out. Men, in general still feel like they should be out working, and if anyone should take the domestic role it should be the woman. The reason men aren't asked, how they are finding the balance of fatherhood and work, is because men have always had to work to provide for their families, they have never had to balance anything, now thats not saying that they haven't been around as dads too, but work is something they had to do, unlike women in the home, but ofcourse, times are changing, and often both parents need to work to sustain a household. Women continue to fight for new positions in jobs, and still are tied to their old full time jobs, that of childrearing and housemaking. So in a sense, women are wanting their cake and it too. Perhaps, rightfully so, but if women are not wanting the domestic role anymore, and men dont want it either because it has never been theirs, then how are families going to function in the future? That is my concern.
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  14. Phusion

    Phusion WoW This Name is Old

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    i think u guys arent getting what i was saying. Which is why I said before that its not clear.

    but i'm saying that there are females that are raised to be independent to the point where they have the "he cant tell me shit attitude" in public i.e. friends & family. Then when your alone its something different. I know females that would wash my feet or cook me dinner in private just because they dont see a problem with it. (and it shouldnt) but as soon as those friends and family are around they front like they cant even get you a glass of fuckin water.

    maybe that clears up what I was saying.

    hope so.
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  15. Phusion

    Phusion WoW This Name is Old

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    sorry dawg, sammi only gets water for me.

    lol


    hey baby!
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  16. I hope she cooks ya dinner b4 she washes ya feet
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  17. tight-eyes

    tight-eyes Such a F*cking Lady!

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    lmao @ slippers warm by the fire! Word... I definitely see the coorelation between the two... I don't know if youre familiar with the t.v. show "Divorce Court", but I watch it just about everyday... and one thing I've noticed is that the husbands who most adamantly spout off that archaic "I'm the man/head/king of my castle" type of rhetoric do see it a direct statement of their control over their spouses.


    I agree with that... a lot of women do do that. I think a lot of that stems from the fact that women were lead to believe that they were more suited for/competent in domestic work... convincing them that their "sphere of influence" was the home as a way to pacify them and keep them content and out of mens' hair in the business and political arenas. I haven't done much research so the theory I'm about to lay out here is based on my own presumptions, but I think that women developed an attitude of domestic superiority as a one-upmanship over men who dominated in every other arena... that women began to internalize that notion and used it to retaliate against men who mocked/discouraged their efforts in areas outside the home. I dunno, thats just my theory, I'm sure there are major holes in it but I can definitely see the connection... what do you think..?


    I think stay-at-home parents has pretty much been a non-issue for those in the working class (I'm speaking in the context of the U.S., I'm not familiar w/Britain)... in most families, women have always been expected to work outside the home to contribute to the economic support of the family... having a mother stay at home was (and in many cases still is) a luxury that many families couldn't afford. The problem is/was that those women are still expected to take on the double burden of balancing work and domestic/child care, whereas that expectation isn't commonly placed on men. This was one of the main reasons black feminism branched off from the the primary womens liberation movement... most of the rights white women were fighting for (one being the right to work outside the home, something black/minority women were already forced to do)... were trivial to other women who didn;t happen to be white and middle-class. But I digress... let me get back on topic.

    My point is that it shouldn't be an issue of women "eating their cake and having it too", because that again unfairly presumes that women should be held primarily responsible for domestic/childrearing duties... parents need to work together so we aren't left with the false proposition of either the mothers staying at home or kids being neglected if she goes to work... which leaves room for no other alternatives and leaves the father totally unaccountable.
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  18. tight-eyes

    tight-eyes Such a F*cking Lady!

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    I understood what you were saying the first time, I'm still 1) saying that I don't agree and 2) asking you to explain to me what the purpose would be in the "head of the house" title in the first place.

    1) I'm not going to speak to the attitudes of women who don't appreciate any type of input from men (saying "he can't tell me shit"), because a) I can't speak for or relate to them and b) I don't believe that most women who buck the "head of household" title also fall into that category of women... sidenote: I do notice that men often set up that "traditional vs independent women" dichotomy in these kinds of topics when I rarely see women express that "he can't tell me shit" sentiment, though... interesting.

    I feel that most women who don't believe in that title also believe there is no logical reason for deferring to their men just based on the fact that he was born a biological male. I think the women in those cases are expressing their desire for an egalitarian-style relationship/marriage.

    2) you said...
    then went on to say that...
    a few issues here:

    - you're attempting to disassociate the term "head of the house" from what it necessarily denotes: authority over one's family and household... and, you can't do that... the word head means "leader of others" while the iconic representation of a head represents the "top" of a body, theres no way around that.

    - you made a reference to certain women not having a problem with the title, as long as it didn't actually imply that it entitled the person who held it to any power/authority... the problem here is that it does imply power... no one wants to feel like they're being kept under another person's control... especially not the type of women you describe.

    my question to you was and still is, what would be the point of the title then..? in other words, why does a man need to feel like he's "the head", even if it doesn't really mean he has any power (as you said)..? you still haven't answered that.

    Tell me, what does the term "head of household" mean to you..?
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  19. skandelous_lala

    skandelous_lala back from the dead

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    That's basically where I stand as well.


    I still don't believe you can be total equals or 50/50 100% of the time..hell I don't think there's a true 50/50 at all... the closest you can get is 49/51 (I've had this conversation on here somewhere in the past) Anyways..I feel like one partner is going to take the "head" role when the situation calls for it and the other is going to back down a bit..vice versa..switch 'em up..whatever.

    I think this whole topic just comes down to matters of control..control issues, ect. A man doesn't like feeling controlled..a woman doesn't like feeling controlled. Okay so there may be some people out there who have no issues with being controlled..but that's another story all together.

    My whole thing goes back to...there shouldn't be those control issues b/c a person shouldn't be exerting that much control over their partner, where their partner has begun fighting it or is held down by it. I think that's a quality you should look for in the person your in a relationship with ..are you comfortable with the amount of control they desire in a relationship? Well if the answers no...I can pretty much tell you with certainity that the shit ain't gonna work very well.
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  20. 81sweetness

    81sweetness brunette's do it best!

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    people please...we must understand that the man, whether he can afford to or not should assume the role regardless...why? because he is the one to fit those roles properly, which include things like protecting the house from criminals etc...imagine a marriage where the husband is nonchalant with his wife because she won't get in where she fits in, so to speak, and allow him to have that role...then imagine a marriage where the wife does submit to that role for him....now imagine a burglar breaking into the house one night and he is up the street at a friends house watching the fight and the wife calls him franticly screaming help!, which husband do you think would have a greater sense of urgency towards leaving the fight to run help you in a possibly tragic situation? I want the hubby that will value his role as the head, to start running full speed on the first words help!..

    ladies listen.. just like we want to be the only piece of ass he gets from now on after marriage, we are essentially telling him that we are the Head of Asshold. and if he don't submit to that then we're getting a divorce. turn the tables and it doesn't look as pretty huh? even the vows say "to have and to hold...to cherish etc.." that part is telling us to look only to our mates for sex.

    it's funny how people pick parts of the vows as ok, but others aren't .
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