For those that accuse Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) of being a pedophile

Discussion in 'IntroSpectrum' started by Thrilla-Ali, Apr 19, 2008.

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  1. Thrilla-Ali

    Thrilla-Ali Dapper Don

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    You simplified a complex matter with your 1 and 2.

    1. Certain types of morality can be understood by the nature of a culture. Gods laws ARE universal however, just like how the mosaic laws are no longer in practice, and just like how Jesus made a new covenant, religion also adapts to time. Since the norm was like that at that time, their actions are not immoral based on the fact that this was normal to them and based on the fact that nobody detested this norm.. society was fine with it, and that includes everyone (including the 9, 10 , 11 yr olds). Since all of this has already been adressed in the thread, don't waste my time and yours.

    The nine year old who went through puberty had the option of saying "no" and yes, that is exactly what would've happened. Marriages have been rejected before, what makes you think she wouldn't have the right to say "no?". What makes you think she was forced into the marriage? There is documented evidence indicating the consent of Aisha and how much love she had for the prophet.. Aisha (the nine year old) is a scholar and prodigy.

    Only educated individuals have the capacity to understand this it seems. If you ever explored the study of anthropolgy, you would come to find out that there is an anthropoligical methodology called "epike" (sp?) and it trains the student to release all the social frames that we're use to today and strip them down to none.. so that when exploring other cultures past or present, you wouldn't have a biased approach based in the time and culture your living in today..

    Watch the youtube video, if you watch that video and have question about that video i will answer but other than that.. all the answers are already in the thread.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM4IuDVFL3s
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  2. Imperial1

    Imperial1 For pressed ones only

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    No what he's saying was that during those times, it was a common practice in all parts of the world, and lawful for someone to marry and have kids as early as the age of 9 because they would reach puberty/adolescence as early as the age of 9yrs old. This means they were mature enough to wed and have families. It is still practiced in this present day, therefore, it is NOT an islamic thing as you idiots are trying to make it look, it is a cultural thing.

    Imperial1
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  3. RapCritik

    RapCritik New Member

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    So the sunnah changes with time....as man changes, God changes along with him.

    A 9-year-old girl, no matter how prodigiously intelligent she may be, should not be allowed to marry and have sex in 2010. You agree with that Thrilla?
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  4. Thrilla-Ali

    Thrilla-Ali Dapper Don

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    Marring 9 year olds is not a sunnah, but islam in some aspects does change in time because with time culture changes as well. For example the huddood laws of shariah have been reformed in many islamic countries, especially with the introduction of DNA evidence ex. Pakistan

    I'm not sure if 9 year olds in particular still get wedded to much older grooms anymore but it's more complicated than that im afraid because there are certain tribes and civilizations out there that are still living in the same state and norms their forefathers have. Certain indeginous tribes still practice marriage with very young brides, with that said, we can't get critical of them for doing that because it's their culture. If we apply the same logic here where nobody has a problem with this norm (in that society), including the bride, then we can't be so quick to judge and point fingers. However, most of the world has changed in thought, and therefore our social conditioning is different than those indeginous tribes out there. Therefore, we consider it wrong and immoral.. and so would the 9 year old. I think most of the world would consider it wrong in the current era, so to answer your question.. i would consider it wrong, excluding those primitive civilizations which still exist today. So it's understandable and should be comprehensible to all in my opinion.
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  5. Imperial1

    Imperial1 For pressed ones only

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    I said a person who reaches adolescence/puberty as early as the age of 9, boy or girl, were allowed, and in some places today are still allowed to marry. Reading is fundamental.

    Imperial1
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  6. RapCritik

    RapCritik New Member

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    Hey Imperial1. I was responding to Thrilla's assertion that Aisha was a scholar and prophet, not to what you said about puberty. Yes, reading IS fundamental.
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  7. RapCritik

    RapCritik New Member

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    What does the word "ISLAM" mean? Doesn't it mean "submission"?

    The question now is, submission to what? Submission to culture, which changes year-to-year? Or submission to the Everlasting and Unchanging Creator?

    You tell me.
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  8. Thrilla-Ali

    Thrilla-Ali Dapper Don

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    Not what the word Islam means practically in Arabic. Islam is a religion, submission to peace is the meaning of the word. I was talking about the religion itself not the definition in english.

    The religion changes with time and culture, because both are interwoven with one another. I'm not stating the fundamentals change but what I'm stating here is islam will adapt to cultural norms as time progresses.. however with that said the fundamentals of the religion won't change, such as the 5 pillars. This has been addressed.
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  9. Imperial1

    Imperial1 For pressed ones only

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    Doesn't matter who your response was to, it was what was in your response that sparked mine to yours.

    Imperial1
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  10. RapCritik

    RapCritik New Member

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    Well then, rather than accuse me of not being able to read...all you should've done is elaborate on what you said and in turn ask me who or what I was referring to.

    "The Art of Civil Discourse" by RapCritik. Pick it up at your local bookstore.
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  11. RapCritik

    RapCritik New Member

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    Ok, I didn't know the literal translation of "islam" was "submission to peace"

    You're saying a lot can change, but the fundamentals won't change.

    A question: Did The Prophet say any of that in the Qu'ran or the Hadiths? Is there anything along those lines in Scripture, saying that these practices may change along with culture, That what is acceptable today may not be acceptable in the future? (Or is that line of thought itself a product of modern culture...)

    I'm fully exposed before you. Quote me something like that from the Scripture and I can shut up peacefully knowing that I was wrong.
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  12. Imperial1

    Imperial1 For pressed ones only

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    IMO you are questioning thrilla as if you think he sees the fact that the lawfulness of The Prophet Muhammad to marry Aisha at the age of 9yrs old is him saying that pedophilia is okay. If it wasn't against the law in those times when The Prophet lived and still lawful in some places today, why do you make it seem as if you're accusing him of condoning pedophilia when he's not?

    Imperial1
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  13. Thrilla-Ali

    Thrilla-Ali Dapper Don

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    Anything which isn't forbidden is permissible. It isn't forbidden in Islam for someone to marry a girl who reached puberty, even if it was by the age of 9. However, on the flip side it isn't forbidden to ban such a practice either, it all depends on the society, get it?

    Banning or outlawing this practice does not go against the grain, meaning the fundementals of the doctrine. It's cultural, not religious.

    It's really that simple, no need to quote religious text here.
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  14. RapCritik

    RapCritik New Member

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    Let's say an ancient south american culture/religion practiced cannibalism.

    Let's say certain people today still practice cannibalism.

    Let's say I'm a subscriber of this ancient religion, professing it to be the eternal and final revelation of God.

    Now lets say that when I'm in public, I denounce the practice of cannibalism, yet argue that it was lawful back then so it's ok, even though it's not lawful now - yet all the while still claiming my ancient faith to be the eternal and final revelation of God.

    Do you see an inconsistency?
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  15. RapCritik

    RapCritik New Member

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    Certain things are forbidden. They are forbidden for all time.

    However, certain things that weren't forbidden for The Final and Greatest Prophet of the Eternal Creator .... can become forbidden. .. .

    You yourself, loyal disciple of The Prophet, who strives to be like him in all ways ... would never consider marrying and sexing a nine-year-old girl.

    So you'd rather follow European cultural dominance ...a temporary thing.... than the Final and Greatest Prophet of the Eternal God.

    (Wouldn't you rather admit that Islam was born in a backward society, however good some aspects of the religion are, and that The Prophet was a product of that backwardness? Either that or become a Christian)
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  16. x - calli

    x - calli friend of israel

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    i disagree with cannibalism, although i would not criticize someone for doing it if they were born into one of these societies and were taught to do it their whole lives. however, i would always disagree with them if they attacked and murdered people to cannibalize them.

    as far as their ancient religion.. to complete the analogy, the ancient religion would neither condone nor forbid cannibalism. as such, followers of that religion would not be inconsistent by not being cannibals. after all, such a practice can vary widely depending on cultural context.. however, murdering innocents is pretty much universal, so i would reject any religion and its followers if that religion supported such acts.

    islam, to my knowledge, allows or does not forbid marriage and sexual relations between men and pubescent girls. its also ok to arrange for a marriage when she is prepubescent, and it SHOULD forbid sexual relations with a prepubescent child - the fact that muhammad waited until Aisha reached puberty supports this. id need more info from thrilla though.

    basically, marriage at any point and sexual relations after puberty depend on cultural context (like mental maturity and so on). sexual relations with a prepubescent child is universally wrong, and i would reject any religion/culture that said otherwise. however, other than muhammads act of waiting for aisha to reach puberty, i dont know Islams stance. Thrilla, if you could fill me in itd be appreciated.
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  17. Thrilla-Ali

    Thrilla-Ali Dapper Don

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    You hit the nail on it, it's a cultural thing. As for me, I'm no scholar, i only forwarded information that i learned from articles and Hamza Yusuf (youtube video i posted). Religion should be taken very seriously, and in that perspective, i can't give information based on mere assumptions, i can only provide an individual with information i know is correct. If i give out misinformation, I'm held accountable for that. I'm even weary about possible mondegreens which might take place, so i suggest any further questions regarding this topic be handed over to the proper authority, which is an islamic scholar or imam. I for one know the power knowledge has, and how reading material and words in general are very powerful. I'm not a graduate of any islamic university or someone with vast knowledge of islam, heck my deen and piety aren't always great either, so with that said this topic would have to take to a closure at this point..

    Here's a website where you can interact with a scholar directly

    Islamic Institute of Toronto - click

    And here's a website if you want to know more about islam, go to the forums, it's the best website in my opinion.

    www.turntoislam.com
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  18. Imperial1

    Imperial1 For pressed ones only

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    What you mean "let's say"? It DOES exist today. Heck, there are places where it's legal to fight dogs and chickens, which is cruel to animals. But to compare the inhumane to the humane actions is apples and oranges.

    In a case where a 9yr old is legally grown and fertile (male or female), that's not condoning. That's like you calling an 18yr old a pedophile for having a 17yr old s/o while they're both in high school and 3 or 4 months apart in age.

    Imperial1
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  19. RapCritik

    RapCritik New Member

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    So sex with a 9-year-old, as long as she's had her period, is HUMANE?
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  20. RapCritik

    RapCritik New Member

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    It says in Scripture that Mohamed waited for his 9-year-old bride to reach puberty before they consummated? Where did you read that? Or is that out of your own willingness to give him the benefit of the doubt....
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