For those that accuse Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) of being a pedophile

Discussion in 'IntroSpectrum' started by Thrilla-Ali, Apr 19, 2008.

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  1. Thrilla-Ali

    Thrilla-Ali Dapper Don

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    No, i was proving a point. Seems like you're to hateful of a person to even see that. I provided what you believed, and what i believed. And it's that simple, it doesn't take a genius to figure that one out. So lets try this again.


    During biblical times and the 7th century, yes. As soon as the first period, a child was considered grown basically. That was the cultural norm back then.

    And here's my answer....

    whoever quoted those Ahadeeth has half quoted them, below you can find the complete Hadeeth from both the sources.

    Both these incidents took place when Aisha was in menstruation, and it is the known Truth that her marriage to Muhammad (RasoolAllah Sallallahu Alaihi Wa Sallam) consummated after she started her menstruations in Madinah al Munawarrah.


    Here is the complete Hadeeth from the translation of Sunan Abu Dawood and Sahih Bukhari



    I'm discrediting the website because it has fallacies.

    So no ad hom here..

    You claim you can translate arabic right? Here's an arabic website of hadith texts in arabic, provide evidence by breaking down the words from arabic to english in those hadiths. All you did thus far was break it down in english, which means nothing.....

    http://hadith.al-islam.com/Search/AdvSearch.asp

    Here's further evidence she was engaged at six

    Sahih Bukhari 5.234
    Narrated Aisha:
    The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.


    In conclusion, no matter what your argument is (he was a manipulative man etc) the prophet Muhammad (s) of 7th century arabia was born into a norm of young marriages. No-one considered this act as "wrong" that goes for Muhammad (s) and Aicha as well. You fail to grasp the social science in all of this, due to your undeniable bias towards muslims.

    People had problems with infanticide in pre-islamic arabia, for obvious reasons, which is why the act was abolished, and rightfully so. However, you won't find one case where people had any problems or objections with young marriages back then, because they were just fine with it. No, it was not "wrong" to them nor to the prophets (P), just because it's "wrong" to you doesn't mean you have the right to sabotage them. It's not 'right' or 'wrong' because to them it's 'right' and to you it's 'wrong.' In other words, it's subjective.
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  2. reggie_jax

    reggie_jax rapper noyd

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    its true back then being a pedo was normal.. people married their cousins too... had sex with animals.. good thing we don't have any sexual devients today, huh?
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  3. Thrilla-Ali

    Thrilla-Ali Dapper Don

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    Yes, but the difference being the girl and the parents consenting to the marriage in this case, animals do not have a choice in the matter.

    I think the important thing to understand here is in the minds of people back then it wasn't "wrong" nor did they think it was "pedophilia" because the mental disorder of pedophilia didn't even exist at that time.

    In this case, what's "wrong" and what's "right" is subjective to the culture that you're living in, whether it's 7th century arabia, african tribes in africa, or north america. Back in those days, these kinds of marriages were harmless to the people, and a social norm.
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  4. reggie_jax

    reggie_jax rapper noyd

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    so consent is the key? who is to really say that children can't consent to sex... just because its a law doesnt make it an issue of morality. give me a secular reason these acts are immoral. animals have no choice in the matter but since when do we really protect the rights of animals? its ok to slaughter and eat them, test them for our products and steal their milk, go ahead and jack off a horse for personal profit but if u happen to enjoy it then... it's immoral? what about those bitches that just lay back and let their dogs do the work? is that not consent on the most basic level?

    and what is this idea that it's "not pedophilia" because it was a social norm? that doesn't mean it wasn't pedophilia that just means that back then pedophilia was a social norm. being a faggot is a social norm in san francisco but that doesn't make them any less gay does it.

    i'll agree with subjective morality on a secular level but if you're arguing from a religious standpoint isn't morality delivered directly to us from the one and only god and therefore absolute?
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  5. Emo Dollaz

    Emo Dollaz roll dem bones

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    thrilla ali has said "cultural norm" about 600 times
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  6. Thrilla-Ali

    Thrilla-Ali Dapper Don

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    Ask yourself why i had to repeat the phrase 600 times before you say i said it 600 times. Thanks (or is this just a random fact you find intriguing one way or another instead of an ad hominem or ?)
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  7. Thrilla-Ali

    Thrilla-Ali Dapper Don

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    This is an argument based on subjectivity. Were the spartans homosexuals because homosexuality was a norm with the spartan males? If so, are they to blame for their homosexual acts? Well, one theory is the spartans did this to have a more personal relationship with each other in order for a stronger enforcement on the battle field. If one spartan seen his partner getting attacked, the other would fight harder, for example.

    Consent isn't the focal point here, subjectivity is. The people back in those times didn't find it immoral. The secondary point is intent. A pedophile breaks social norms and values, and the law of a scoiety or/and has the intent to. The people back then didn't.. That's why i don't view it as child abuse. Also, let's keep in mind that the clinical definition of pedophilia has to do with a fixed obsession for prepubescent children only (common wealth usage).

    As for the animals, they are a product of what their master teaches them. If their master teaches them perverted sexuality, they will become that. They don't have a chance to escape the situation, and given the fact they have a very low intelligence doesn't help your argument either..
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  8. The Giant

    The Giant New Member

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    "As for the animals, they are a product of what their master teaches them. If their master teaches them perverted sexuality, they will become that."


    Think about what you just wrote Thrilla...
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  9. Thrilla-Ali

    Thrilla-Ali Dapper Don

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    I was giving you the classic example of how pets or animals are taught by how their masters treat them.

    I'm no animal expert here... i mean, if a sick woman puts honey on her pussy and gets her dog to lick it off.. is the dog licking the honey because its sweet or is he getting turned on by licking the womans pussy? I hear a lot of american women do that btw
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  10. The Giant

    The Giant New Member

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    *masterbates furiously*
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  11. reggie_jax

    reggie_jax rapper noyd

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    sounds mighty gay to me

    where i think you're making a leap in logic is that you assume that pedophilia is necessarily linked to immorality. while this is the popular consensus that pedophilia is inheritely immoral, and i dont condone pedos, whether or not they considered it immoral is really besides the point. an attraction to children is still an attraction to children no matter what the moral consensus of that act is. you're right that's the "clinical" definition of pedophilia, and i wont argue whether the muslim prophet fits this definition because i don't know about him besides hear-say, but the popular term pedo is often applied to more than just adults who pursue pre-pubescent children. i mean the guys in to catch a predator may not be clinical pedophiles... but they're certainly considered sexual deviants in our society. now maybe in mohammed's time they'd have fit right in. there have been societies where rape was commonplace/accepted... does it then cease to be rape?

    on a side point.. i'm assuming you're muslim. my bad if im wrong. im just curious... (if you are muslim) as a muslim wouldn't you believe that morality is not subjective but rather that allah has a specific guideline people are meant to live by? if so.. then the issue of pedophilia should be pretty cut and dry. either god approves or he does not approve. timelines and general consensus should not be the deciding factor if there is one lord and one set of rules to live by. if a society's general consensus approves of acts that god has deemed immoral then that is just simply an immoral society.

    i disagree. of course animals learn from their masters just as any living thing learns from it's environment, but they are not devoid of thought or natural instinct. as far as we know they have no concept of morality so they dont worry about right and wrong, but if they are placed in harms way they know well enough to avoid harmful situations/fight back if something tries to harm them. they aren't always successful of course.. if they were we'd all be forced to eat a vegan diet. but i dont think an animal is incapable of consent on the most basic level. if you do something they dont like they will attack you/run away. that said even if they are as stupid and devoid of thought as you say i dont see why we should be working to protect them.. since apparently if they are "abused" they're too stupid to know the difference.
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  12. Thrilla-Ali

    Thrilla-Ali Dapper Don

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    Rape can never be a "norm" because the females obviously object to it, otherwise it wouldn't be called "rape" therefore it isn't normal to them. In what society did a female get raped and then say "hey, it's only normal"


    Also, rape is abuse. The young Marriage of prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to Aicha was not, she consented and so did many other girls at that time of her age, because it was only normal to them after all. There's a difference here..

    As for the animals, read what i said to "the giant"

    As for questioning morality in accordance to god, i already answered that question to menaz a couple of times already..
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  13. reggie_jax

    reggie_jax rapper noyd

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    i havent read the whole thread to be honest just the opening post. i'm not really gonna go back and read it either, you don't have to answer if you dont want to but i dont see how a prophet of god could adhere to the notion of "subjective morality." what was wrong then should still be wrong now. what's wrong now would then obviously still have been wrong then. unless god "changed his mind?' (seems a little strange for an omnipotent being to change their mind tho)
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  14. Thrilla-Ali

    Thrilla-Ali Dapper Don

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    Not quite.. god was okay with certain mad-made customs at that time..

    i mean, we are dealing with people of a primitive era here... you can't just expect things to fit under your range and scope just because it makes sense to you..

    the people of that time had a different way of living and god worked with that culture... religion adapts to time and culture in some aspects..

    And i do think god finds it subjective for human beings, in that sense it depends on mankind. In this case god leaves it to man, depending on the culture they're living in..

    in our culture it would be wrong and not others.. so in this case i think god would accept the subjectivity of man
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  15. reggie_jax

    reggie_jax rapper noyd

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    i dont see much use for religion or morality if they can be bended at will to fit in with our society.
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  16. menaz

    menaz Avant Garde

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    After Khadijah's death muhammad married Aisha when she was only 6 years old and due to Abu Bakr’s request did not consummate the marriage with her for three years.. i.e. muhammad did not have dakhala (sexual intercourse) with her for three years. Khadijah and Sauda were the only wives of the Prophet, with whom he married not for lust but out of necessity. Moreover, Some times muhammad had to bend few rules and even bring Allah to reveal some verses for him in order to allow him get what he wanted. As was in the case of Zeinab Bent Jahsh, Maryah and Aisha. As for your redherring about Al mut'im b. Tabari Volume IX, pp. 129-130: "Umm Ruman said, that al-Mut‘im b. ‘Adi had asked ‘A’ishah’s hand for his son, but Abu Bakr had not promised anything." Note: It was for his son not for him. Note: Abu Bakr promised him nothing.

    "Sahih Bukhari vol. 5, Book 58, Number 234 Narrated 'Aisha: The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six. We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me for the marriage." Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.

    The following evidence I provide will explain this situation much more clearly to you, showcasing Aisha was only six years old when she was forced/arranged into this engagement/marriage.This is a half-turth like I said, also note the account you provided here is not the full understanding of the situation, and further saheeh hadith evidence I provide will make it much more clearer. Your evidence had nothing to do with Aisha getting married to prophet muhammad, it had to do with her being handed over to prophet muhammad so the sexual intercourse could take place within the already existant marriage. i.e. Prophet muhammad was consummating the marriage (dakhala). The last sentence from the same verse you brought to the table "Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother "handed me over to him", and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age" It does not say she was getting married nor does the sentence before it make that claim once you understand it in its complete context. It's basically saying, unexpectedly muhammad showed up in the forenoon and Aisha was handed over to him. i.e. They were cleaning her up so she would be fresh as a daisy for prophet muhammad because sexual intercourse was to take place that day. They were already married, but the consummation of this marriage (dakhala) however didn't take place until 3 years afterward until Aisha was nine years old. And we know she was married at six years old because Tabari's historic account narratored by Aisha and four other saheeh hadiths narratored by Aisha, Sulaiman, and Hisham’s father over whlemingly collaborate the claim she was already married at six years old, and was only turned over to prophet muhammad at nine years old for the sexual intercourse that day.


    And heres the further evidence to back my explanation up, from Tabari and the other saheeh hadiths narrated by Aisah and Sulaiman to make my point much more clearer to you.

    from the saheeh Hadith, Sahih muslim, Book 008, Number 3309:

    'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have share in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah's Messenger (, may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him.
    http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/008.smt.html#008.3309

    Same situation from Sahih Bukhari Number 234, but now the infromation has been made much more clearer, she was already married at six years old . They were washing her for muhammad because she is going to be turned over to him for the sexual intercourse. i.e. Prophet muhammad was coming to consummate the marriage (Dakhala), but understand they were already married though. Also Note: the sexual intercourse took place at her house when she was nine, but I'll make that point much more clearer next with Al-Tabari. Also note: Ayesha was swinging along with her playmates ( i.e. She was still a little child swinging with her friends who were also little childern as well) and her mom was calling for her loudly like the little child she was, Aisha was also innocently and blissfully unware of what her mother wanted.
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  17. menaz

    menaz Avant Garde

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    Al-Tabari is by far the most important historical source for the early history of Islam....

    Tabari VII:7 "The Prophet married Aisha in Mecca three years before the Hijrah, after the death of Khadija. At the time she was six."
    Tabari vol.9 p.129-131:Aisha was 6 (or 7) years old when she was married, and the marriage was consummated when she was nine years old.
    Tabari IX:131 Aisha narrated “My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old. Neither a camel nor a sheep was slaughtered on behalf of me.”

    This piece of evidence adding to the puzzle blatantly says Aisha was six years old when she was married, making it really clear what was about to go down and what infact did go down. Aisha was cleaned up/perpared then she was brought to 53 year old prophet Muhammad who was waiting for her in bed, then Umm Ruman forced her own daughter (aisha) to sit on prophets lap, then everyone left the room but Aisha and prophet Muhammad, from there the SEXUAL INTERCOURSE took place with her at nine years old. i.e. Muhammad consumated his marriage (Dakhala) with Aisha.

    These are all the same accounts but with more indepth detail than we read in Sahih Bukhari vol. 5, Book 58, Number 234. Thus, Sahih Bukhari vol. 5, Book 58, Number 234, saheeh Hadith, Sahih muslim, Book 008, Number 3309, saheeh Hadith of Sunan Abu-dawud book 41, number 4915, also number 4916 and number 4917, saheeh hadith of sahih muslim volume 2, #3309, and in saheeh hadeeth of the sunan of abu dawud Vol. 2, #2116. All these Saheeh Hadiths plus the Tabari historic account narrated by Aisha here has in complete detail collaborated what I've been saying to you all along that the sexual intercourse took place between prophet muhammad and Aisha in her house unexpectedly that forenoon when she was handed over to him at nine years old. i.e. Muhammad Consumated his marriage (Dakhala) with Aisha.

    From the saheeh hadeeth of the sunan of abu dawud.

    From Abu Dawud, Vol. 2, #2116: "Aisha said" The Apostle of Allah married me when I was seven years old." (The narrator Sulaiman said: "Or six years."). " He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old."

    As you can clearly read as it was clearly stated Aisha was married to him at the age of six, and by the age of nine she was handed over to muhammad and the sexual intercourse took place with Aisha at her house as i've already pointed out. i.e. Muhammad (bana bi) with Aisha at nine years old. Bana bi also means: Muhammad had sexual intercourse with Ayesha. It's a phrase that is used to denote intimate sexual relations. And that is the only possible Arabic understanding of that phrase here.

    from the saheeh hadith of sahih muslim volume 2, #3309

    Aisha reported:Allah’s Messenger married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine…

    and...

    from the saheeh Hadith of Sunan Abu-dawud book 41, number 4915, also number 4916 and number 4917:

    Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
    The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation ( with me when I was nine.) She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.

    (Note: “cohabit” does not mean merely sharing the same roof, but is a euphemism for living together in a sexual relationship.)

    (Note: Ayesha and Bishr both agree, she was playing in a swingas well.)

    Those following saheeh hadiths are particularly interesting as well, because once again according to Aisha in both accounts she was married at six years old. Then after being turned over to prophet muhammad at nine years old, he had sexual intercourse with her in her house, then she left her house at the age of nine years old and lived with prophet muhammad in this forced/arranged sexual relationship.

    FYFI: Heres the definition of the word "consummate". Allow me to clear this up. Dakhala does not mean the English word “consummate” but the English phrase “consummate the marriage”. While the English word “consummate” may mean completion (as of a business transaction), the Arabic word “dakhala” carries no such connotation. Thus, Consummated the marriage is a euphemism for sexual intercourse. Dr. Mohsin Khan had used the euphemism “consummated the marriage” to denote the sexual act. Other Muslim scholars also translate dakhala to mean sexual intercourse: Grand Sheikh Qaribullah & Sheikh Darwish (lain with); Sheikh Muhammad Sarwar (had carnal knowledge with); Ahmed Ali (slept with); Imam Al-Mawdudi (consummated the marriage); Mohammad Habib Shakir (gone in); Dr Muhammad Ayub Khan (gone into); and Imam Ibn Kathir (sexual relations with).

    The problem is Islamist like yourself care nothing about moral absolutism. However, The point here is to prove your "prophet" named "muhammad" without a doubt had the mind set of a pedophile and indeed had sexual intercourse with a prepubsent nine year old. If that is how I have to reach you so be it. To me your prophet named Muhammad was a pedophile either way.
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  18. menaz

    menaz Avant Garde

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    Science and puberty

    From the saheeh hadith of Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3311:

    'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old.

    from Martin lings definitive biography of the Prophet which is acclaimed worldwide:

    For the last three years scarcely a day had passed by without one or more of ‘A’ishah’s friends coming to play with her in the courtyard adjoining her father’s house. Her removal to the Prophet’s house changed nothing in this respect. Friends now came every day to visit her in her own apartment – new friends made since her arrival in Medina and also some of the old ones whose parents, like hers, had emigrated. "I would be playing with my dolls," she said, "with the girls who were my friends" One day," said ‘A’ishah, "the Prophet came in when I was playing with the dolls and he said: ‘O ‘A’ishah, whatever game is this?’ I said: ‘It is Solomon’s horses,’ and he laughed."(Ibid., pp. 132-134)

    From the saheeh hadith of Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151:

    Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

    Note: I already proved Prophet Muhammad had sexual intercourse with Aisha in her house, however the kicker here is Aisha still brought her dolls with her to his house and was still playing with her dolls at his house along with her platmates. Which can only mean one thing under the doll-playing exegesis of Ibn Hajar and Islamic laws and customs, Aisha was still a prepubsent child when Prophet Muhammad A.) had sexual intercourse with her at nine years old for the first time in her house, and B.) continued to have sexual intercourse with her after she moved in his house. You also created a straw man here when you tried to claim my logic was "only prepubsent children were allowed to play with dolls." This is not my logic obviously you misread because if you had read correctly you'd note Fateh-al-Bari and others stated it not me. (i.e. It's Fatwa!)

    from the saheeh hadith of Sunan Ibn-I-Majah 1876:

    "A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) is reported to have said: Allah’s Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) contracted marriage with me while I was (yet) a six years [sic] old girl. Then we arrived at Medina and stayed with Banu Harith b. Khazraj. I fell victim to fever; then my hair (of the head fell off (and became scattered). Then they became plenty and hanged down upto [sic] the earlobes. My mother ‘Umm Ruman came to me while I was (playing) in a swing alongwith [sic] my play-mates. She (the mother) called me loudly. I went to her and I did not know what he [sic] wanted. She seized my hand and stopped me at the door of the house and I was hearing [sic] violently until the agitation of my heart was over. Then she took some water and wiped it over my face and head. Then she admitted me to the house when some woman [sic] of Ansar were present in the house. They said, "You have entered with blessings and good fortune." Then she (the mother) entrusted me to them. So they embellished me and nothing frightened me but Allah’s Messenger(peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) (when he came there) in the morning and they (the women) entrusted me to him. On that day, I was a nine years [sic] old girl."

    Note: I already explained how she was engaged and married around 6 or 7.
    Note: nothing frightened her accept prophet muhammad. Anyway, the point of me posting this evidence was to collaborate the highlighted section above with the science below inorder to validate my point...

    "Science shows that the female body still has a ways to go from the time a girl has her menarche to the time she is sexually able to reproduce, or is considered to have an adult body. Science further documents that there are times when a child may have "precocious puberty" and have menarche as early as age 8. This is usually due to a dysfunction or disorder within the child. Aisha had precocious puberty. Although it happens, it is very rare that young children experience menarche at age 9. Aisha had been very sick prior to her "sexual intercourse" with Muhammad. She had even lost some of her hair during her illness. Physically, she was having severe problems. she was having some type of sickness that triggered her menarche, or she was experiencing some disorder that also caused the menarche. Either way, having menses at age 9 does not signify adulthood and justify engaging in sexual activities."

    "research shows that young people reach full intellectual maturity by age 11 or 12, whether or not they have achieved the physical changes of puberty."

    "girls are not "mature" following their menarche. There are no biological grounds to marry or engage post-menarcheal girls in sexual activity; theycannot conceive children yet. Puberty does not equal maturity, and therefore this misconception should not lead to marriage or sexual intercourse. Logically then, menarche is not a sign of a female being able to bear children. Only at the end of puberty can a girl conceive,not at the beginning, not at the middle. Puberty usually takes several years to complete."
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  19. menaz

    menaz Avant Garde

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    college level text books, and the World Book Encyclopedia.

    "page 66: [There is a table depicting the four stages of cognitive development according to Piaget. It shows that the brain develops mature cognitive ability after age 11"

    "page 73: [On page 73 he presents a table showing that the brain is not fully mature until about the age of 16. from this table, it was estimated that at age 9, the maturation of the brain is between 50 to 60%.]"

    "page 89: The onset of puberty is not a single, sudden event but a complex, gradual process. In perhaps oversimplified terms, puberty is characterized by (1) a spurt in physical growth, (2) maturation of physiological mechanisms, and (3) the appearance of secondary sex characteristics (for example, pubic hair or breast development). The onset of puberty is basically regulated by endocrine glands, important organs that create body changes through the secretion of chemicals into the bloodstream or lymphatic system."

    This means your menarche argument is a false dichotomy an therefore invaild. The following showed that puberty does not end with menarche. It takes at least 2 more years for a child to sexually mature.Prophet Muhammad missed the mark on this end. I've shown that the female body still has a ways to go from the time a girl has her menarche to the time she is sexually able to reproduce, or is considered to have an adult body. Having menses at age 9 does not signify adulthood and justify marriage and engaging in sexual activities.The average time for a girl to become pregnant following menarche is one to two years. Prophet Muhammad erred in establishing Islamic grounds for allowing men to marry/havedakhala with menarcheal girls. The girls are not sexually mature, they are not mentally mature, and they are not physically mature. Prophet Muhammad's precedent (Sunnah) is a blight upon the children of the Muslim world. i.e. Prophet Muhammad established a appalling precedent for Islam, Muslims, and its young girls.

    Now the proof your pedophile prophet thighed Aisha at six years old

    And here is a religious fatwah that mentions Muhammad’s physical relations with Aisha:

    "Praise be to Allah and peace be upon the one after whom there is no [further] prophet. After the permanent committee for the scientific research and fatwahs (religious decrees) reviewed the question presented to the grand Mufti Abu Abdullah Muhammad Al-Shemary, the question forwarded to the committee by the grand scholar of the committee with reference number 1809 issued on 3/8/1421 (Islamic calendar).

    The inquirer asked the following:

    It has become wide spread these days, and especially during weddings, the habit of mufa’khathat of the children (mufa’khathat literally translated means "placing between the thighs" which means placing the male member between the thighs of a child). What is the opinion of scholars knowing full well that the prophet, the peace and prayer of Allah be upon him, also practiced the "thighing" of Aisha - the mother of believers - may Allah be please with her.

    After the committee studied the issue, they gave the following reply:
    It has not been the practice of the Muslims throughout the centuries to resort to this unlawful practice that has come to our countries from pornographic movies that the kufar (infidels) and enemies of Islam send. As for the prophet, peace and prayer of Allah be upon him, thighing Aisha. She was six years of age and he could not have intercourse with her due to her small age. That is why [the prophet] peace and prayer of Allah be upon him placed "his male member" between "her thighs" and "massaged it softly", as the apostle of Allah had control of his "male member" not like other believers... (Source: http://www.sout-al-haqe.com/pal/musical/mofakhaza.ram) The following link provides independent evidence that the above fatwah does indeed exist: http://www.islamic-fatwa.net/viewtopic.php?TopicID=8330"


    Obviously your pedophile prophet committed mufa’khathat with Aisha when she was not only nine years old but six years old as well.( Note: i.e. I've now proven she was mufa’khathat before she was nine years old at the age of six as well.)
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  20. menaz

    menaz Avant Garde

    Joined:
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    The psychology of a pedophile prophet named Muhammad.

    I've already proven Muhammed prefered llittle girls so young that they were still playing with dolls. i.e. he prefered prepubsent children, and he even seemed suprised that his friend Jabir bin 'Abdullah didn't.

    Muhammad gave the following reason for marrying young virgin girls:

    "Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
    I was accompanying the Prophet on a journey and was riding a slow camel that was lagging behind the others… When we approached Medina, I started going (towards my house). The Prophet said, "Where are you going?" I said, "I have married a widow." He said, "Why have you not married a virgin to fondle with each other?" I said, "My father died and left daughters, so I decided to marry a widow (an experienced woman) (to look after them)." He said, "Well done." … (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 38, Number 504)"

    It doesn't end there though, Muhammad gave the following reasons for marrying young virgin girls:

    "Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah:
    While we were returning from a Ghazwa (Holy Battle) with the Prophet, I started driving my camel fast, as it was a lazy camel A rider came behind me and pricked my camel with a spear he had with him, and then my camel started running as fast as the best camel you may see. Behold! The rider was the Prophet himself. He said, 'What makes you in such a hurry?" I replied, I am newly married " He said, "Did you marry a virgin or a matron? I replied, "A matron." He said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you may play with her and she with you?" When we were about to enter (Medina), the Prophet said, "Wait so that you may enter (Medina) at night so that the lady of unkempt hair may comb her hair and the one whose husband has been absent may shave her pubic region. (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 16)"

    and...

    "Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
    When I got married, Allah's Apostle said to me, "What type of lady have you married?" I replied, "I have married a matron." He said, "Why, don't you have a liking for the virgins and for fondling them?" Jabir also said: Allah's Apostle said, "Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you might play with her and she with you?" (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 7, Book 62, Number 17)"

    Hence, Muhammad’s comments indicate that his reason for marrying Aisha while a young virgin is so that he could fondle and sexually play with her!

    In the following saheeh hadith he confided to Aisha that he had dream/fantasized of her:

    "Sahih Bukhari 9.140 Narrated 'Aisha:
    Allah's Apostle said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' Then you were shown to me, the angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said (to him), 'Uncover (her), and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' "

    Whether Muhammad had actually such dream or he just said it to please Aisha is not the point. What matters here is that it indicates that Aisha was a baby being “carried” by an angel when the Prophet was fantasizing about her.

    Muhammad also had eyes for another infant girl, promising to marry her when she grows up. Ibn Ishaq places this event during the time of the Battle of Badr in 624 AD when Muhammad was roughly 54 years old. (Guillaume, pp. 310-312)

    "(Suhayli, ii. 79: In the riwaya of Yunus I. I. recorded that the apostle saw her (Ummu'lFadl) when she was a baby crawling before him and said, 'If she grows up and I am still alive I will marry her.' But he died before she grew up and Sufyan b. al-Aswad b. 'Abdu'l-Asad al-Makhzumi married her and she bore him Rizq and Lubab… (Ibn Ishaq, The Life of Muhammad: A Translation of Ishaq's Sirat Rasul Allah, translated by A. Guillaume [Oxford University Press, Karachi], p. 311)"

    and...

    "Muhammad saw Um Habiba the daughter of Abbas while she was fatim (age of nursing) and he said, "If she grows up while I am still alive, I will marry her."(Musnad Ahmad, Number 25636)"

    Even forgetting the fact that prophet muhammad would of been well into his 60's by then, the point here is i've now proven two instances where a man well over fifty had his pedophilic lustful eyes set on two prepubescent girls one of which named (Aisha) he had sexual intercourse with while she was still prepubescent! Now that is a problem.
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