Did Allah Ever Speak Directly To Muhammed?

Discussion in 'The Sanctuary' started by snowy, Aug 7, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. snowy

    snowy 39k Rap Song Music Folder

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2004
    Messages:
    4,590
    Simple Question.

    Did Gabriel do all the talking? If I can make the comparison that in the Bible Lucifer (and 1/3 of other angels) were more than capable to disobey and go against God. Then would it be out of the question to think that Gabriel could do the same. If the two, Allah & Muhammed, never spoke directly is it not possible that Islam is not the worship of Allah but Gabriel?
    test
  2. Nu'maaN

    Nu'maaN Anu'naki, Nuqqa.

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2005
    Messages:
    25,670
    angels do not have free will, as we humans do.

    gibra'eel was an angel, so he does what he is told by the almighty.

    the prophet did speak to Allah directly during the night of ascension, but all other times, it was gabriel passing on the message that Allah wanted to.

    so, no - gabriel would not disobey the lord, and no - we do not worship him.

    :numaan:
    test
  3. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2010
    Messages:
    11,469
    :clapping:
    Is ask a further question in..how'd he know it was Gabriel.
    2 Corinthians 11:14
    14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.
    test
  4. Noncentz

    Noncentz Sieg Heil, M'fer!

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2004
    Messages:
    6,043
    That depends on what dungeons and dragons rule-set your playing with.
    test
  5. Joro

    Joro New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2002
    Messages:
    5,054
    Angels DO have free-will. Of course they do. They're higher than we humans. They have all the gifts we have.. and more. They can even rebel if they want to - ask Satan.

    Or just read Genesis. Or read the Book of Enoch.
    test
  6. snowy

    snowy 39k Rap Song Music Folder

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2004
    Messages:
    4,590
    Lil more reading...

    Didnt realize that Muslims dont consider Satan to be an Angel at all but a Jinn. Another race of sentient beings Allah created who are like fairy god mothers (Qarin) to us. The story of his fall is otherwise the same. He chose not to bow to Man and so was cast out of Heaven.

    Creating something with Free Will then punishing your creation for exercising that GOD GIVEN RIGHT. Not really a sign of intelligence.


    Anyways... Where does it say that Angels don't have Free Will. Other than our own assumptions. Or the Qu'ran. I mean using the Qu'ran to support the idea that Gabriel can't do what he wants would be extremely flawed if he was the one who dictated it to Muhammed.
    test
  7. Nu'maaN

    Nu'maaN Anu'naki, Nuqqa.

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2005
    Messages:
    25,670
    so now you're questioning god's intelligence.

    it is your free will that you don't believe in a god, it is my free will that i do.

    but then this goes into the pre-ordainment of things/events, which is another topic.

    we have two primary sources of information, the qur'an and the hadith.

    in the qur'an, it mentions angels directly many times, and different angels.

    as you can see with the final line, they do as they are commanded.

    that negates any free will on the angels part.

    and i don't get what you're trying to get at with gabriel not being able to do what he wants, he's an angel.

    he does as he is told, that is the difference.

    shaytan/iblees wasn't an angel, he was from the djinn created of fire.

    :numaan:
    test
  8. snowy

    snowy 39k Rap Song Music Folder

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2004
    Messages:
    4,590
    If you dont question his Intelligence then Im questioning yours.



    Hmmm... Seeing as Jinn predate the introduction of Islam. They were probably the former Gods of Pagan Arabs. So that story of a New God coming in and saying "Im The True God, those guys are just one of my creations" is just the story of one culture swallowing another. And the new culture is saying worship of the old ways is punishable with fire and death. They turned the peoples once "good and rewarding gods", the Jinnaye, into spirits whispering evil thoughts into their ears. And then told the people that the only way to guard against it was to follow the teaching of Islam. Muhammad even claimed that upon hearing the Qur'an that the Jinn were overcome with humility and repented their ways to become Muslims themselves.


    Its not exactly an enlightening vision when looking at it from a modern viewpoint.

    And if its not Gabriel. Then what about Satan? Since he does have Free Will. Hes older than Mankind having being created first from the power of Fire. Presumably he would have ablilities and appearances that would make the average person believe hes God. All he has to do is lie about his name.

    One Jinn among Many fooling a man to think he was being contacted by a new God when in fact it was an old one. And conned him into creating a new Monotheistic Religion where Satan no longer needs to share his Faith Tributes with his brother gods.

    Its almost the same story of YHWH/Judaism coming from Elohim/Canaanites.
    test
  9. Nu'maaN

    Nu'maaN Anu'naki, Nuqqa.

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2005
    Messages:
    25,670
    probably a shit analogy, but bare with me.

    say you have kids and you train them, raise them according to your guidelines, you expect them to do what you want, and then when they get older they forget about everything you did for them. would that not hurt you?

    you taught your kid not to rape/steal/murder, because it's wrong but you tell them they have the free will to do it if they will it. you will be angry if they disobey your teachings, despite showing them the proper path. right?

    not saying we are all god's children, fuck that cliche, just driving the point home that it has nothing to do with the lack of your intellect that you got angry at your kid for raping somebody.

    true, jinn do predate humans, but what's your point?

    as far as humans are concernced, i believe the first of creation was muslim, adam.

    islam just means those who submit to the will of god, which makes abraham a muslim, moses a muslim, jesus a muslim, noah a muslim, lot a muslim, etc. and if to be a christian means that you submit to the one god, same thing applies.

    and i'm not sitting here playing sides, i respect all the prophets equally.

    if you read about the first time the prophet experienced the wahi/revelation (in the cave, when gabriel said "read" to which the prophet said "i cannot read", and gabriel said again "read, in the name of your lord who has created you ...") - he ran to his house in fear, because he thought it was some sort of punishment, and to be fair anybody would be confused in that situation.

    but upon consolation from his first wife khadeeja who reminded him that he had wronged noone, and that this was predicted in the older books at which point they went out looking for a monk who had heard about these predictions.

    as i said earlier, you can believe what you want about what happened.

    i got my beliefs and they're pretty much unbreakable, to me.

    edit ; question my intelligence, fucked if i care man.

    :numaan:
    test
  10. snowy

    snowy 39k Rap Song Music Folder

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2004
    Messages:
    4,590
    First off Satan's sin was that he would not bow to a creation many thousand years younger than him made of clay. He didn't show evil until God threw him out of Heaven for exercising his Independence. Satan's sin was thinking for himself. The lesson of Religion is Dont Think For Yourself, Have Faith That I Can Think For You. His teaching like so many others are that Obedience is more important than ANYTHING.

    God's only Mercy is to let Satan return to Earth (The realm of Jinn's) to commit horrible acts upon men whispering sin into our ears on a daily basis but he will get his punishment at Judgement day with all of us like thats supposed to make up for the horror Allah allows to take place. And so each person gets their own private Qarin (Devil Spirt) courtesy of Allah.

    Second isnt it a very large assumption on our parts what he taught another species of his in another dimension. Its an assumption that Jinn were raised to be good. If in fact Satan was raised to be a vicious dog then the person who raised it is at fault.

    Submit. My point exactly. Convert or die. It was the message given to non-believers in the area at the time. Even Moses gave the people a choice. Several in fact according to their books. But Allah's will be done, hes not negotiating shit.

    Convert Or Die. Medieval Borg.

    Confused? Everywhere I look the word that comes up is Suicidal. He was driven mad. In fact he thought he was possessed by a Jinn for most of his life. But somehow its not demon after all but Gabriel just chilling which is accepted at face value on Muhammad's word alone. So "Gabriel" sticks around and apparently causes madness in this prophet ironically the very description Jinn/Satan has on his mission of mischief. The description for Gabriel is in other books and its described to bring a calming effect, there might be awe and reverance at seeing a being of light in your cave. But never suicidal thoughts.

    There there honey you're not crazy, you're not seeing things, there has to be an explanation...

    Thats exactly what I'd expect a medieval women to say to their husbands after a sudden onset of mental illness..

    May I ask how unbreakable Faith in your beliefs works in the analogy of your Stock Market and say a Great Depression. Anything unbreakable does not waver. Ever. Or its just not unbreakable. Not as advertised. All its gonna take is enough people like me for your Stock Market to crash.


    Oh and Im aware that not all these beliefs are gonna be exactly yours. Its kind of a pain looking up sect this denomination that. It speaks to me that not even on these smaller scales were these religions ever that popular or believable. Probably just followed so as not to get slaughtered.
    test
  11. Nu'maaN

    Nu'maaN Anu'naki, Nuqqa.

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2005
    Messages:
    25,670
    see, you derive a different lesson than i do from that incident.

    i see that the first sin committed was arrogance and pride, which is why he didn't bow down. i am fire, he is clay. by nature, i rise. he is beneath my feet. those were his thoughts. and fair enough, but the commandment from god was to bow, which he didn't. so the sin was arrogance, which to this day exists.

    the lesson of religion is not that at all, but it is to kill your arrogance and live with humility. why are you even siding with the satan in the first place? you obviously don't believe in god/devil, right? but that's how blinded you are by your hate for religion that you don't even see the proper moral from that story.

    obviously he has it all planned, who am i to question god?

    it seems to me that you're sympathizing with satan. for what? for whispering into the hearts of men evil and degrading thoughts? why the sympathy? because he "thought" for himself, lol. if he did think for himself, then why before he was asked to bow, did he worship the same god?

    satan is deceptive by nature. when asked why he didn't bow to adam, his response was "how can i bow to anyone except for Allah?". if he said that to me, i would've been like "yeah, you got a point mate let's have a drink". i'm not that strong hearted in faith (although there are certain beliefs that are unbreakable).

    if satan was an angel, then there'd be no conflict within the human mind.

    there'd be no struggle, there's no peace without war.

    quote that from the qur'an, and make sure it's not from surah taubah.

    surah taubah (the ninth chapter) was relating to war, and everything that was ordered in that surah was so the prophet could rally up his troops. and mind you, this was against the people who had previously ridiculed them and ousted them from their own land.

    if you notice, that surah doesn't even start with the usual "bismillahi ..".

    let's not make facts up to drive our points home, yeah?

    who in the fuck ever said that the prophet felt "posessed by a jin MOST his life"? please, mighty fucking please quote that from a hadith or the qur'an. no narratives, i want a hadith (and a SAHIH hadith at that) or a qur'anic ayat that shows the prophet claiming to be possessed "most of his life".

    stop reading too much salman rushdi books bruh, concentrate on the real matter.

    there was a stage in his life where he had got black magic done onto him, at which point he thought he was possessed by some witch craft. but most his life? it's not like you to make up facts, so back that shit up.

    suicidal? lolllll. now you're sounding like noncentz.

    again, quit with this bullshit about our prophet contemplating suicide.

    you should un-bookmark answering-islam.org and read the qur'an and hadith.

    and that's the man you're claiming would commit suicide?

    it's obvious all you cunts just want to attack and offend, so fuck it.

    do/read/believe/say whatever fuck it is that helps you sleep.

    :numaan:
    test
  12. snowy

    snowy 39k Rap Song Music Folder

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2004
    Messages:
    4,590
    Where's Gods Humility. He doesn't ever show any. He demands servitude. Why didn't he ask Satan to shake Adams hand. No it was bow down to my new creation.


    My point which you seemed to ignore is that Satan as a Jinn as it pertains to Islam was among the Old Gods of Arabs (who were known as Good & Rewarding Gods to their worshippers) and the story of subjugation of the Gods and their disobedience and then eternal punishment is a barbaric old thought that may have made sense for them then trying to conquer the old then. But that doesnt stop it from still a barbaric thought now. And it baffles me why people hold onto it. Its just a Monotheistic story of Zeus conquering the Titans.

    You're right I just dont get Humility from that "lesson", unless its to say that the Faith in and of Gods can crumble in an instant.



    Was reading from a couple different sources.. Seems I was reading The Life Of Muhammad at one point. As well as a narrative from Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 87, Number 111:

    Narrated by 'Aisha:
    "Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while and the Prophet became so sad as we have heard that he intended several times to throw himself from the tops of high mountains"

    Or here.
    Sunni Hadith About the Prophet Contemplating Suicide - Imami
    Steered away from answering islam tbh.

    Gotta look all over the place if im gonna give Islam the same courtesy I give Christianity though..

    test
  13. JASON ANTHONY

    JASON ANTHONY White Devil

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2010
    Messages:
    18,499
    I'd worship 12 year old Vietnamese prostitutes and whip myself with pickled Rhinoceros tales if snowy said I should.
    test
  14. Nu'maaN

    Nu'maaN Anu'naki, Nuqqa.

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2005
    Messages:
    25,670
    yeah, but that was from the first revelation, he was petrified.

    to say he was contemplating suicide, and possessed by a jin MOST his life is absurd.

    he was 40 when he got the first revelation, and he passed away at 63. so 23 years. and out of those 23 years, he only feared the revelation at the start, as any sane human being would.

    anyway as i said earlier bruh, think what you want.

    you won't change my mind, and vice versa.

    :numaan:
    test
  15. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2010
    Messages:
    11,469
    Actually it says men were made to be a little lower than elohiem (Jesus) a little higher than the angels.
    test
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)