Discussion in 'Overtime: Off-Topic Discussion' started by DirtBagDan, Oct 8, 2011.
1. Brock Lesnar is not historically big for a heavyweight.
2. Weight cut is a skill in and of itself and its impressive as hell that lesnar can put that kind of mass off for the weigh-in and then back on
3. weight differential (obviously) is not a big a deal at hw because proportionally its a smaller difference. the inverse of that rhetoric is why the small weight classes are only ten pound increments, then fifteen past lw.
4. brock lesnar has rudimentary standup but one of the most polished wrestling games in mma today. had he come straight out of college to mma every purist would LOVE him. wwe shit blinds people to how hard he works and how technically profficient he is on the ground.
5. again, lesnar is NOT historically large for a heavyweight. the weight differential (in mma, as opposed to a less varied combat sport like boxing) is far more inconsequential when theres so many different fighting styles. lesnar's not remarkable because hes so big, hes remarkable because of how efficiently, effectively and smoothly he moves his bulk. Most fighters as big or bigger than Lesnar are considered 'cans' and I think him being quick enough to be good is an accomplishment in and of itself.
saying lesnar didn't deserve his title shot is absolutely silly considering that he won. perhaps 'my evaluation of lesnar's capabilities were severely limited by not having seen him fight much so i was surprised to see how easily he dispatched the champ' would be a better way to word that. you deserve a title shot by being talented. Vitor deserved his title shot at silva less than anyone has ever deserved a title shot but I still wanted to see it. People look at fights way too linearly and seem to think the most recent fight means more than it does. Using lhw as an example, lots of people seem to think lyoto doesn't deserve a shot at JJ, since he's coming off a 1-2 streak, but apart from Rashad who's injured no one else in the division is available/makes as much sense, and most importantly, Lyoto Machida is every bit as talented as Rashad Evans, Rampage Jackson and Shogun Rua, and if he kept fighting those three dudes in rotation forever he'd have a record very close to 500, as would the other three. Like, even with losses, off nights, or fighters with better immediate resumes, theres still a such thing as evaluating talent and knowing that Gegard Mousasi being 3-0 in his last three doesn't make him better than Lyoto unless he got a hell of a lot more explosive, instinctive and powerful.
Why should I respond to that? So we can argue in circles for 20 more pages?
Yes. Due to the fact that he worked for the WWE, which is notoriously known for having athletes using to get bigger and due to the extreme differences in his physique over his career.
Typically to be as large and defined as Brock was during his tenure at the WWE, you'd have to be starved and dehydrated.. similar to your condition at a weigh in. However there's no way he could compete in anything as physically demanding as Pro Wrestling in that kind of condition. It lends to the idea that he had help achieving that particular physique from other than normal means.
Also the fact that he's no longer been anywhere near as defined as his WWE career during his MMA career (except at the occasional weigh in.. even then it's only similar, not the same) supports the theory.
I don't think he did it at all to help with his MMA. In fact I'm quite sure he was off that crap for well before he started MMA. I'm not saying his using it affected his performance.. just that it influenced his body size.
I don't care how hard you're hitting the gym.. that size change in that short a time is insane. I haven't done enough research into his career to postulate anything with any kind of accurate facts.. but it is a bit of a running joke that Overeem doesn't take steroids.. but the Horses that he eats certainly do! lol.
If you notice, his muscle mass has declined since the WWE, even before he contracted Diverticulitis. His physique went from extremely defined to a less defined and "chubbier" look. The "skin tight" defined look is just that.. a look. The less defined "chubbier" look is a sign of genuine strength. Like I said earlier.. the difference between a Body Builder and a Strongman.
I don't think he ever used for an athletic advantage. I think he used it primarily for the look to improve his Professional Wrestling career. I think he got off the stuff as soon as he started considering trying out for Pro Football and has been off ever since.
Explained above. The WWE at the time of Lesnar's employment had a much more lax Drug Testing policy. They've become much more strict since Benoit's Murder/Suicide but even with the change they still have athletes pop positive for PEDs. In fact, when they initially instituted their Wellness Program, about 40% of their roster tested positive.
Responses in color.
Jest's a freak. I don't read that much in a day, pal. Learn to be concise or get graded on your essays.
Anyways, the one thing Slick said that I heavily disagree with is the logic that Brock beat Randy thus he was deserving of a title shot. Shit, since he won you might as well say he was HW championship level fighter after three fights.
I bet you would call Kimbo vs Cain Velasquez unreal right? Well if Kimbo beat Cain, would you defend that Kimbo was deserving of his title shot? Think of all the fighters that could "become" deserving if they too are gifted a title shot and win.
at least brock was coming off a win when he got his shot
randy was coming off a loss and a year of inactivity when he won the belt
If you don't want to read responses, don't debate with other people. I write the amount I feel I need to, to express my points clearly. Your being too lazy to read plays no role in my posts.
It's pretty easy to see that Dana's personal feelings for certain fighters plays a big part in their careers. Happened with Couture, happened with Liddell, could be argued to play a part in why Hughes is still with the company, it's GOT to be the reason why he keeps giving Tito chances despite his W/L in his last 7 fights...
If Kimbo won he'd receive all due credit from me, but he couldn't so it's a moot point. Plus, dude's been beaten comprehensively by people nowhere near the top level of the division. Saying my rhetoric can't defend the extreme end of the 'unqualified' pool isn't a real point. Like I said, it's about a reasonable evaluation of a fighter's abilities. Clearly the hype behind lesnar played a role but so did lack of other compelling matchups and the fact that Lesnar so happened to be arguable in the first place.
@ jest, I'm saying it's not Lesnar's size that makes the difference, it's his ability to utilize it. I view saying 'well lesnar's not that good without his size' on par with, 'well silva's not that good without his reflexes'. they're both natural gifts cultivated through hard work and I don't view them as seperate from the fighters. i would no sooner judge lesnar without his size than i would judge him without his wrestling pedigree.
stop being mad that you're ridiculous.
I'm going to be completely honest with you. I just want you to admit to being wrong about a rather strange point that you tried to make. I don't know if you've read my posts on this site, but a lot of the time I tend to go with a rather unorthodox point of view on most things. I relate with you man, you have less than popular views on the sport and your willing to actually explain your points.
But when you make extreme statements like Tom Lawlor has a better record than Chael Sonnen, you have to be prepared to have people dissect the logic of it. I have this happen to me all of the time. Chael Sonnen not only has more wins than Tom Lawlor, but out of the fights they have both had, he has won a lareger percentage on fights than Tom Lawlor, both in recent times and overall against what most people would consider tougher opponents.
If you want people to take you seriously, do yourself a favor, and retract that statement.
If you think that is unrealistic to build mass like Lesnar and Overeem had over the years, you need to talk to some bodybuilders. The kind of gains they made in the time they made them aren't historical, even for guys who have never touched a performance enhancing drug in their life. If you have trouble believing that it's plausible they achieved these things without drugs, that's on you, but until then, you have to keep in mind your suspicions haven't been proven even in the slightest manner. It's beyond the point of speculating whether or not Chael Sonnen gave himself steroid induced Hypergonadism, you are trying to make a case with no evidence in this Brock Lesnar and Overeem part.
Here's some things I'd like for you to take responsibility for, as I'm a strong believer in a person taking responsibility for what one says, and not avoiding the topic:
You said Tom Lawlor has a better record than Chael Sonnen, time to explain that one.
You said that the UFC designed the Fight for the Troops in Fort hood to promote the career of fighters with a military record, in addition to it not being a charity event, when none of the fighters on the card were military fighters, and they raised $4.1 million towards the Intrepid Fallen Heroes Fund. Why you said that?
You have taken away from Brock Lesnar for having a size advantage against, and yet cited Jon Jones as an impressive fighter despite his obvious reach advantage over the whole league. Please explain.
I'm not trying to be a jerk my dude, maybe I'm just not seeing these things the way you are. Help me understand.
If you look at a fighter like Andrei Arlovski, who was very talented, you know what I mean when I say genetics really do play a large role in who's a good fighter, and who isn't. Arlovski is probably the only guy I've ever seen damn near pick people apart, and then get knocked completely unconscious. He just wasn't genetically designed for the sport, no matter how much he practiced and and studied and trained.
You know why Jon Jones, Brock Lesnar, Anderson Silva, Floyd Mayweather, Dan Henderson, Lennox Lewis, Dominick Cruz, Big Nog, Marvin Hagler, and damn near every decent to great fighter have success over many people who are considered martial arts experts who have been training and learning since like age 5? Because they have the genetic advantage.
A genetic advantage can come in many forms:
The ability to gain and maintain large amounts of muscle in such a way that gives them a strength, speed, and balance advantages. Most great wrestlers and power strikers have this advantage in some form. Most muscle bound men (even steroid abusers) simply can't move like Brock Lesnar and if they tried to gain the speed and cardio that Brock Lesnar has, they would probably have a lot of trouble keeping that level of strength. There's a certain point where most men just aren't genetically designed to train past, and Brock Lesnar is able to maintain that. Same with Bruce Lee. If most people tried to train like Bruce Lee, their bodies more than likely couldn't handle it, period.
Reach advantage. Self Explanatory. There's nothing a person can do in the gym to attain a reach, period. Jon Jones, Anderson Silva, Lennox Lewis, and a fuckload of other genetically advantaged fighters were gifted with a reach that keeps their opponents from touching them.
Reflexes. You want to know why some fighters are quick as hell and don't seem to land anything, and then you got fighters like Silva, Mayweather, Machida, or Velesquez who seem to be able to time things perfectly instead of wasting energy throwing punches blindly? A lot of that is a natural gift. Some people have heightened senses relative to others, some people are extremely quick and reactionary thinkers.
And lastly, and probably most important of all, the chin. This should also be pretty self explanatory. There's being a tough cookie, but then there's just plain having the ability to remain conscious while being attacked. I'm sure there's plenty of fighters who would just love to tough their way through a hard hit, but some of them just can't. Some fighters can get appear to be picked apart in a fight, and then win via ko or submission because they simply aren't being hurt like the other guy is.
After a while, you start to realize that FIGHTING requires a multitude of advantages including technical skill, awareness, physical fitness, and genetics.
^I think the chin is an extension of other factors. It depends on things like reflexes, how many times prior you've taken one on the chin and genetic, I won't discredit that fact. I don't think that not being able to remain conscious is necessarily a genetic thing; there's a lot of environmental factors that play into that. Concussions that went unnoticed throughout childhood, training, and proper hydration. The weight cut doles heavily on some of these guys and I seriously believe that walking into the cage, some of them just cannot perform at their regular level and are more likely to get gassed, dizzy, disoriented.
You're right, it's definitely not purely genetic, neither is muscle mass. Genetics definitely play a role though. That was my point. A lot of time, people just aren't built for fighting.
I'm curious to know Farooq, since you seem clued in on MMA.. what your take is on BJ Penn vs. Nick Diaz as well as basically all the negativity surrounding GSP (in particular the rumours that he ducked out of the fight with Condit behind the false pretense of a knee injury because he didn't have the necessary time to prepare)
More specifically to the BJ Penn subject.. too old, or just too much from negative sources and similarly where he ranks in title contention and which weight class at that.
At one point BJ Penn was basically on Anderson Silva status as far as being a candidate for p4p best. I mean he beat Matt Hughes in the prime of his career, and he was the smaller man, he nearly beat GSP when men GSP's size are unable to do so, he nearly beat Lyoto Machida when nobody his size had even come close yet when he had something like a 20 or 30 pound weight disadvantage, which is fucking crazy. Lyoto Machida walks around at over 200 punds, and BJ Penn was fighting way out of his comfort zone weight wise, and he didn't look bad at all that fight. I have been saying that record doesn't mean fucking anything. You have to look at things like that.
I'm a huge fan of BJ Penn, and I hardly think he's past his prime, he's like 34 or something, and he still doesn't really get finished in fights. Aside from the Matt Hughes rubber match, he has looked genuinely uninspired in his last 4 or so fights. He seemed rather disgusted with himself after the Jon Fitch fight. I think BJ Penn still has the ability to remotivate, but he's already accomplished everything that anyone in mma would want to, I don't see it happening.
I think Nick Diaz has got this based on that motivation thing, and based off the fact that Nick Diaz has looked plain crazy lately. He has more to gain from this than Penn, and I see him winning via unanimous decision.
And I don't buy into most MMA rumors, in response to the GSP thing. I think he got a knee injury, and I think people want to believe in hocus pocus, because it's fun.
I love how you're determining the threshold of people taking me seriously on a message board that's easily over 50% trolls.
Lawlor's 7-3 and Sonnen's 26-11. Sonnen's lost 5 times since being in Zuffa promotions, Lawlor's lost twice. Chael's fought larger names since being in the UFC but Lawlor certainly hasn't fought slobs and Lawlor has fought a lower percentage of Cans in his career. There's only a 5% difference in their Win percentages and that's largely due to the fact that Sonnen's had 38 fights in his MMA career versus Lawlor's 11 and Lawlors first professional fight being a NC. Remove that NC (NC's being rare) and Lawlors win percentage jumps to 70%.
Professional Body Builders use foreign substances to help them achieve the desired mass and appearance. This is a major reason why Bodybuilders today look nothing like Bodybuilders 70 years ago. Guys who amass that kind of size naturally, don't get the definition that guys like Brock and Overeem have had at times in their career and it takes them years upon years of building that. That shit doesn't happen naturally over the course of a 2 year period. Especially not a 2 year period where you're not devoted ONLY to building but you're physically competing as well. Which means training your Martial Art, conditioning, and sparring, which gives less time to properly heal your muscles.
I said they use those events to help market fighters. Specifically putting fighters with Military Background on those cards. Which they do.
And the Intrepid Fallen Heroes Fund is a call in and donate fund. None of the proceeds go to that fund. All of that money is generated from Call In Donations. The UFC and Spike just donate commercials and ad time during the broadcast for the fund.
Lesnar's physique has had help and there's more than enough evidence to defend the theory. Especially since ALL of his major growth occured when he worked for a business that had about half of it's athlete's using substances.
Unless there's some new wonder drug that enlongates arms that I haven't heard about.. and it was being used heavily somewhere when Jon Jones worked and/or trained.. the two things are VERY different.
Such intelligent discourse. I guess you really out maneuvered me!
if u honestly believe tom lawlor should be ranked higher/has a better record/is more accomplished than chael sonnen then i don't know what to tell you. maybe you're trolling idk
Dam this thread is still going on, and Jest Chillin still has horrible opinions.
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