D wade Miamis best player and league Mvp?

Discussion in 'Sports Central' started by Iceodu921, Mar 19, 2006.

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  1. Iceodu921

    Iceodu921 Resident Sports Genius

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    Sometimes, we tend not to notice the things that are right there in front of our faces. Take the NBA's MVP race, for instance. In one corner, we have the players who are compiling prolific numbers, but for teams that have been inconsistent: LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Allen Iverson. In the other corner, we have players who don't look like a stereotypical MVP statistically, but whose teams have enjoyed great success: Steve Nash, Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker, Dirk Nowitzki.

    And then, somehow largely omitted from the discussion, we have the one guy who is performing at an absurdly high level and doing it on a contending team: Dwyane Wade. Yet we've hardly heard a peep about his being the league's Most Valuable Player.

    He'd get my vote..


    Damn i wish i had espn insider.
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  2. G-Rob da great

    G-Rob da great Fear moondog.

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    I don't.

    It'd be no point to read.

    He's playing with a guy (Shaq) that finished second in voting last year, and nearly won it in one of the closest races ever.

    THAT'S why Wade doesn't get much consideration for the award- he's not even the most valuable guy on his own team.

    Much like Greg Poppovich laughed off any notion of Tony Parker recieving MVP consideration- Duncan is still the MVP of that team. I believe that most likely until they retire that Shaq and Tim Duncan are the two MVP cornerstones of the NBA. Their value has been underestimated as of late because they haven't had the groundbreaking stats to go along with everything else they provide for a team.

    But hell, Kobe notched a top 5 finish in MVP voting with an even younger, more prime Shaquille O' Neal, so I'd say Wade is definetly deserving of some consideration.

    I'll also say that I wouldn't be surprised to see Wade win it. This year is one of the more "anybody could take it" years than I've seen in awhile.

    My opinion? If you give it to Steve Nash LAST year, I don't understand how he could not get it THIS year.
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  3. Iceodu921

    Iceodu921 Resident Sports Genius

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    Its funny that you knock players such as wade and marion for their cast.


    THen completly dismiss the fact that steve nash has a awesome supporting cast. He makes them better yes but they also make him better. People point to marion's best yr being with nash how about nash's best year being with marion. If hes so valuable why is dallas better without him?

    Also wade is more important than shaq this year. You must not watch any heat games. In the fourth quater the ball is always in wades hands. Shaq even admits to giving a lack of effort. Yes shaq is still a great player but if u took wade off the team itd hurt more at this point than removing shaq. Maybe not in the playoffs but over this 82 game season removing wade would hurt more.
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  4. TeaBagger

    TeaBagger New Member

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    Shaq makes Wade's job easy. Wade doesn't get 2-3 guys running at him like Kobe and Lebron do, so he's free to kill on a nightly basis.
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  5. G-Rob da great

    G-Rob da great Fear moondog.

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    I've tried to explain it to you, I've tried to be nice and break it down for you, but Mr. Iceodu I'm just going to be blunt and say you just basically don't know jack shit about basketball.

    Your too wrapped up in individual numbers and performances instead of looking at the big picture.

    I'm not knocking Marion or Wade for their cast. They're both obviously very great players and play at a high level, I like to think of Wade as a second tier swingman, Marion a third tier guy.. but I think they're both great and very important to their team.

    However, fact of the matter is that their TEAMMATES, Steve Nash and Shaquille O' Neal finished ONE and TWO in MVP voting last year. To me, before you can be called the most valuable player in the league you have to at least be the most valuable guy on your team and neither of them are.

    Dallas is "better" without him? Not nesscarily, they were great with Nash in the first place and the Nash-led Suns eliminated them from the playoffs last year 4-2.

    I could watch zero Heat games and still know that a dominant post presence will always be more important than a two guard in any year.

    [funny]

    When Shaq was out earlier this season Miami went 10-10 correct? It's not much of a fair comparison, but a few weeks ago when Wade was out with the right wrist sprain the Heat went 2-0. Both games were against poor teams that went to the wire.

    Even ignoring the fact they won two games without Wade, I'll repeat what I said, they started 10-10 without Shaq. Since he returned.. 34-11. Removing Wade would hurt the team more? You can't be serious...
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  6. Purple Haze

    Purple Haze pop warner hof

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    Nash bitch.
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  7. Iceodu921

    Iceodu921 Resident Sports Genius

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    lol @ you ignoring the fact that Miami was a much diffrent team in the beginning of the year even had a diffrent coach and played a completly diffrent style. Williams was running free Payton wasnt playing much and walker looked like a fish out of water. Those factors along with shaqs injury led to a slow start.

    Dallas posted more wins last yr than the yr b4 with nash and will post even more this year. Hence Dallas not missing steve nash very much.

    Of course a healthy shaq would be the best player in the league and I know a post presence opens everything up but stop talking as this is La lakers shaq or even shaq from last year. Hes not even avging 20 ppg and is playing the least amount of mpg in his entire carrer. He is not the shaq of old. If the heat lost wde theyd lose their only player who brings it game in and game out.

    As a said in the playoffs the key for them winning it all is Shaq. But however this season Wade has been the team mvp. How could any1 agrue with that fact?

    The fact that you try and say hes not proves you lack any knowledge of basketball and your basing your agruement on the old shaq and is clear youve never watched him this year.

    Get off espn.com and watch some games.


    and lol @ wade never getting double teamed. The knicks tried double teaming him tonight.
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  8. Bash

    Bash New Member

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    hell nah if kobe didnt get it the 9 years he played wit the lakers because he had shaq then wade shouldnt get it either back in the 2003 nba season kobe carried the lakers when shaq was unhealthy at one point he scored 40 or more points in 10 straight games and averaged 30, 6.2 and 5.9 for the season and still wasnt awarded the mvp
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  9. the Prince

    the Prince New Member

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    wade is the best player in the league and comes from the school that will produce future nba star dominic james
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  10. Brahman

    Brahman Mel Van Peebles

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    yo bash, what up son?

    the 2002-03 los angeles lakers: 3-9 with no shaq and 46-23 with him
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  11. cyphamasta

    cyphamasta New Member

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    maybe you need to actually read the article. here it is in the next post...
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  12. cyphamasta

    cyphamasta New Member

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    Sometimes, we tend not to notice the things that are right there in front of our faces. Take the NBA's MVP race, for instance. In one corner, we have the players who are compiling prolific numbers, but for teams that have been inconsistent: LeBron James, Kobe Bryant, Allen Iverson. In the other corner, we have players who don't look like a stereotypical MVP statistically, but whose teams have enjoyed great success: Steve Nash, Chauncey Billups, Tony Parker, Dirk Nowitzki.

    And then, somehow largely omitted from the discussion, we have the one guy who is performing at an absurdly high level and doing it on a contending team: Dwyane Wade. Yet we've hardly heard a peep about his being the league's Most Valuable Player.


    Everyone realizes he's a great player, obviously. But I'm not sure people realize just how great he has been this year. Wade ranks "only" fifth in scoring, so the tendency is to think he hasn't been on par with players like Bryant, James and Iverson offensively. Yet because Wade is so much more efficient and is such a good passer, he's actually been the most productive offensive player of the bunch.

    For starters, Wade shoots 50.2 percent from the floor, the only player in the league's top eight in scoring to hit more than half of his shots. Additionally, he attempts 11.1 free throws per game -- only LeBron gets to the line more -- and drains 77.8 percent of them. As a result, his true shooting percentage (his shooting percentage adjusted for 3-pointers and foul shots) is 58.3 percent, which comfortably tops that of James, Iverson and Bryant and ranks even with Nowitzki's.

    Second, Wade is far better at creating opportunities for his teammates. Fully 20 percent of the possessions he uses end with an assist, nearly double the rate of Bryant (11.9) and Nowitzki (10.4) and far ahead of Iverson and James, as well. As an added plus, he's also a better offensive rebounder than those four, which helps get back the possessions he loses because of his slightly higher turnover ratio.

    As a result, Wade is on top of the charts in player efficiency rating, my measure of a player's per-minute statistical production, and it's not because of his defensive rebounding or blocks or steals -- it's because he's been a more productive offensive player than anybody in the league, even Kobe Bryant.

    Wade is probably the best defender of the MVP candidates -- the only other one who can make a good argument is Kobe. Although no player of this caliber is asked to be a defensive stopper full-time, Wade was a second-team All-Defense selection a year ago and has performed well again this season. In fact, the Heat give up two fewer points per 48 minutes when Wade is on the floor -- even though his backup, Shandon Anderson, is in the league only because of his defense. More amazingly, Wade and Tony Parker are the only MVP candidates who can say this -- the teams of Bryant, Nash, Nowitzki, Billups, James, Iverson and Elton Brand all give up more points when they're on the court than when they're off it.

    But a lot of people still won't vote for Wade, because of the "Where would they be without him?" factor. Their argument goes something like this: The Suns without Nash, or the Mavs without Nowitzki, or the Lakers without Bryant, would be much worse off than the Heat without Wade. Miami, after all, still has Shaq, while the other clubs lack another star of similar caliber.

    I've got news for you: The numbers say they're horribly mistaken. Miami without Wade this season has been absolutely horrendous. It's a bit misleading to look at the Heat's record when he doesn't play, since Miami is 2-1. Instead, look at the games themselves. Miami's two wins without Wade came against perennial doormats Charlotte and Atlanta, by a combined total of three points. And the one loss? A 111-93 thrashing by Phoenix in which the Heat gave up 47 points in the first quarter.

    But fortunately, we have much more to look at than those three games -- we have Miami's entire season to digest. And based on those numbers, Wade has as much positive impact on his team as any other player in the league. Thanks to 82games.com (again) we can see how the Heat have performed with Wade on and off the court, as well as how the other MVP contenders have done.

    And in this analysis, Wade is far, far more valuable to the Heat than Nash, Nowitzki, Parker, Billups and Bryant are to their clubs. With Wade off the floor, the Heat have been outscored by an eye-popping 8.8 points per 48 minutes. To put this in perspective, a team getting outscored by that amount would normally go about 15-67.

    Additionally, no other Miami player -- not even Shaq -- has an impact anywhere close to this. Even when O'Neal is off the court, the Heat outscore their opponents by 2.9 points per game -- in fact, with any other player off the court, Miami still outscores its opponents. But without Wade, they suddenly morph into the 2004-05 Bobcats. Only one other player -- LeBron James -- is even close to Wade in this category, and in LeBron's case it's as much a condemnation of the Ira Newble/Luke Jackson contingent as it is a stamp of his own quality.
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  13. cyphamasta

    cyphamasta New Member

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    So we have a compelling case thus far that Wade has been immensely valuable this season. But I know what argument comes next: Wade can't be the MVP because the Heat is "Shaq's team," right?

    Consider Wade's scintillating effort against Detroit, for instance, when he scored Miami's final 17 points, including the game-winner with 2.3 seconds left, for one of their most important wins of the season. Down the stretch of that game, as in most Heat games this season, it was Wade and not Shaq who was Miami's go-to guy.

    Certainly, that perception seems to be killing Wade's chances right now. That notion was mildly annoying a year ago, when Wade played far more minutes than Shaq and was nearly as effective but got zero MVP votes to O'Neal's 58. But this year it's a preposterous proposition.

    Unfortunately, we in the media probably aren't helping. Shaq is the most famous guy on the team and certainly the most loquacious, so he's our go-to guy anytime we need a quote. And if he's the one who always has his face in the mike, it only galvanizes our perception that it's "his" team. (Actually, it's Mickey Arison's team, but let's not get technical.)

    Even Washington coach Eddie Jordan, whose team Wade has repeatedly shredded to pieces over the past 12 months, succumbed to the idea recently. "I'll say it's still Shaq's team," he said after a recent loss in which Wade burned him for 40. "I think he is the senior guy who has won the championships. He allows Wade to do his thing late in games, but I'd say it is Shaq's team."

    The second part of Jordan's statement is the most important, because it's so widely believed. Because players like Damon Jones and Udonis Haslem had career years playing alongside Shaq a season ago, many folks believe that Shaq's arrival is a tide which lifts all boats.

    But in Wade's case that's not necessarily true. He played much better last season in games in which Shaq wasn't in the lineup, and while that trend hasn't held up this year, the overall picture from Wade's two seasons with O'Neal doesn't show a strong impact by Shaq. Wade has played 28 games without O'Neal in the past two years (including two playoff games last season), and in those contests he's scored more while shooting a slightly lower percentage.


    That is exactly what we'd expect -- a higher scoring average because he's getting more touches, and a lower shooting percentage because he's getting more attention from the defense. Once you compare the two numbers, the idea that Wade needs Shaq in order to play at this exalted level doesn't hold water.

    This should be obvious if you think about it. While face-up shooters like Jones, Haslem and Christian Laettner last season benefited from all the attention Shaq got in the paint, it actually hurt Wade. Wade's game is all about driving to the rim with his blazing quickness, and there's a lot less room for him to do his thing with the Big Fella (and whatever 300-pound oaf is matched up against him) taking up so much room in the middle.

    So in looking at Wade's season, let's quickly sum things up:

    • He's been the best player in the league statistically, as shown by his No. 1 PER.
    • He's arguably had the greatest defensive impact of any MVP contender.
    • His team has been massively worse when he's off the court.
    • He's the only MVP candidate who is both putting up monstrous numbers and playing on a contender.

    If I made a case based on just one of these factors, it wouldn't be terribly convincing -- there are many different ways to evaluate players, and often they can give you very different answers about who is the best. But when all the indicators point in the same direction, it gets pretty tough to ignore.

    And let's face it: It was plain to see if we looked. Wade has been right in front of our eyes all season, but because his team isn't an unexpected surprise, and we already knew he was a star, we've been taking his tremendous season for granted.

    For most of the season, that's blinded us to the fact that he's become the best player in the league and is far more deserving of the MVP award than any of the other candidates thus far anointed. Fortunately, it's not too late to rectify the mistake. We may not think of the Heat as "his" team, but for Dwyane Wade, this season certainly should be "his" MVP year.

    But in Wade's case that's not necessarily true. He played much better last season in games in which Shaq wasn't in the lineup, and while that trend hasn't held up this year, the overall picture from Wade's two seasons with O'Neal doesn't show a strong impact by Shaq. Wade has played 28 games without O'Neal in the past two years (including two playoff games last season), and in those contests he's scored more while shooting a slightly lower percentage (see chart).


    That is exactly what we'd expect -- a higher scoring average because he's getting more touches, and a lower shooting percentage because he's getting more attention from the defense. Once you compare the two numbers, the idea that Wade needs Shaq in order to play at this exalted level doesn't hold water.

    This should be obvious if you think about it. While face-up shooters like Jones, Haslem and Christian Laettner last season benefited from all the attention Shaq got in the paint, it actually hurt Wade. Wade's game is all about driving to the rim with his blazing quickness, and there's a lot less room for him to do his thing with the Big Fella (and whatever 300-pound oaf is matched up against him) taking up so much room in the middle.

    So in looking at Wade's season, let's quickly sum things up:

    • He's been the best player in the league statistically, as shown by his No. 1 PER.
    • He's arguably had the greatest defensive impact of any MVP contender.
    • His team has been massively worse when he's off the court.
    • He's the only MVP candidate who is both putting up monstrous numbers and playing on a contender.

    If I made a case based on just one of these factors, it wouldn't be terribly convincing -- there are many different ways to evaluate players, and often they can give you very different answers about who is the best. But when all the indicators point in the same direction, it gets pretty tough to ignore.

    And let's face it: It was plain to see if we looked. Wade has been right in front of our eyes all season, but because his team isn't an unexpected surprise, and we already knew he was a star, we've been taking his tremendous season for granted.

    For most of the season, that's blinded us to the fact that he's become the best player in the league and is far more deserving of the MVP award than any of the other candidates thus far anointed. Fortunately, it's not too late to rectify the mistake. We may not think of the Heat as "his" team, but for Dwyane Wade, this season certainly should be "his" MVP year.
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  14. G-Rob da great

    G-Rob da great Fear moondog.

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    You said it backwards. It should be SHAQ'S INJURY along with those other minor factors led to a slow start.

    Miami had a different coach? [funny] It was the same coach that got them 50+ wins a year ago!! I could see if Pat Riley replaced some rookie head coach or some shit, but Van Gundy wasn't a joke of a head coach or anything.

    They got off to a slow start because Shaq wasn't in the lineup. You're trying to fish for other minor reasons but 9 out of 10 people would link it to Shaq not being in the lineup.

    I KNEW you were going to say that before you even responded. I was thinking, "watch this cat come back and mention how Dallas won 50 the last year with Nash and 58 last year". I also KNEW you were going to ignore the fact that they won 60 games with Nash the year before that.

    I don't even have to argue with you, you're managing to debunk your own theory. Just look:

    You're saying Dallas doesn't miss Steve Nash. Which is true, they are a talented team with their own MVP canidate in Dirk Nowitzki and a quality guy like Jason Terry can step in and fill the role with ease.

    Gasp?!!?! Is that why Nash was never highly regarded a MVP canidate in Dallas---- because of the talent around him? Oh wait, it is a possibility!! Could the same be true for mr. Wade of the Miami Heat? I think so!!

    That entire paragraph supports my thoughts that you get too wrapped up in stats to an even further degree. Thanks for proving me right yet again, which makes G-Rob 149-2 on the year.

    The key for them winning is Shaq, period.

    I'm not basing my argument on the old Shaq, I'm basing it on present day Shaq. I know he's on the decline of his career, but he's still a dominant post presence, something very hard to come by in todays game, ESPECIALLY at the CENTER position.

    It's funny that you mention "LA Lakers Shaq". Well look what they've become without him. Okay, I'm not even going to debate about this, but Kobe is a better player than Dwayne Wade on both ends of the floor without question.

    So, tell me why he couldn't be that much more successful when he got the same pieces from Miami that Dwayne Wade had?

    Wade won 41 games his first year, Kobe first post-Shaq year 34 (they were both injured a portion of both seasons).

    So why is it that Kobe, the better player of the two, can not win with those pieces like he did with O' Neal?

    Look at how bad the Lakers have been without O' Neal and how good the Heat have been with him. I don't see why you can't understand that Shaq is the key.

    This coming from a cat who created this thread based on something he read on ESPN.com. [funny] [funny] [funny] [funny] [funny]
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  15. cyphamasta

    cyphamasta New Member

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    ^^ G-Rob. read the ariticle. the facts are there and it pretty much shuts you the fuck up.
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  16. cyphamasta

    cyphamasta New Member

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    D-Wade=most deserving MVP.

    lol @ G-Rob completely ignoring the facts i posted. even he couldn't argue that.
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  17. Iceodu921

    Iceodu921 Resident Sports Genius

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    lol dnt even need to respond to g rob now that the article complete supports eveyrthing ive said and shuts him down.

    Great Post.

    Although G rob i have no idea where your going with this kobe agrument? Seems like you are helping my agruement right their. And if I was starting a team id defintely take wade over Kobe.
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  18. G-Rob da great

    G-Rob da great Fear moondog.

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    It was 8 am after I made my post-- I didn't scroll up and read it, I went to bed.

    It was a good article, although I can say I knew 90% of those "facts" before I posted, it doesn't change anything I've said.
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  19. G-Rob da great

    G-Rob da great Fear moondog.

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    I'd take Wade too to start a team, this is his third season and Kobe's 10th, honestly Kobe can only start to go downhill in the next year or two. Kobe is the best NBA swingman, 2 guard whatever you want to call him. Easily- some even consider him the NBA's best player.
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  20. G-Rob da great

    G-Rob da great Fear moondog.

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    The only thing I disagree with from the article is the notion that the Heat would be worse without their star than Phoenix or Cleveland would be with theirs [funny].. especially with the amount of touches and minutes LBJ gets (which is not surprisingly more than D-Wade).
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