Discussion in 'The Sanctuary' started by TheBigPayback, Dec 26, 2012.
Amillenial, premillenial, postmillenial..
I know there are many interpretations to each of those...could you give me definitions to each so we are on the same page ? They can be yours, or whatever. Just need something here to go off of.
I got lot's to share and this is a good topic. What's your 'position' ?
While I wait for your reply I have some thoughts I'd like to share...Now I'm not speaking generally to you per se or specifically to anyone.
I don't usually operate my understanding under man made categories or their systematic, compartmentalized and fragmented "cottage industry" breakdowns.
Under this scholarly dichotomy you have to go to mainstream bible colleges and be taught falsely the scriptures by industry curriculum and standards, if you are a serious 'Christian'. And to say nothing of what is truly lost at the expense of this foolishness. (for example Amillenial, premillenial, postmillenial of end time events). And if you want to preach under this system you have to adhere strictly to it, amidst a thousand other similar but 'official' degree paths.
This matrix of learning (scriptures) breeds "Churchy-anity" and out of this many, many false doctrines in turn are taught by deceived pastors. They, in turn, teach to ignorant sheep who do not study or seek truth through the Spirit. We are wisely told by Paul to study for ourselves to be shown approved. It is difficult to do when if you go against the congregation, in most cases, you will be pressured out of fellowship or excommunicated. Not to say you can't have teachers, but do it under free will and integrity. In almost all Sunday services scriptures are not taught anyhow. Truth takes the back seat to the tax exempt 501c status and the government oversight that comes with it. Suppression from the censors. Conversely, what is widely available online ultimately stems from this unfortunate process, having, deep down, the same root.
Revelation 12:9 tells us Satan deceived the whole world. We see this today, through deception.
Deception is believing what is false to be true and what is true to be false. And like the deception in other areas such as "evolution" Satan has too infiltrated Christianity and its think tank institutions. Why else do they exist in so many flavors ? Spiritual wickedness in high places is what we wrestle against. Not flesh and blood.
Without such a complex and wide baring split in bible doctrine and their distribution into the minds of millions Satan could not have mislead countless number of people away from seeking true revelation and discipline from the Father. Instead they are taught not the law/word of YAH but sound bites and wordily paganism wrapped in the scriptures and filtered out. But deceptively comfortable in wolves clothing. How many chruch signs had this season special holiday Christmas ques ? Almost all of them.
I study the scriptures as a living document, a history of real events, a cultural book, a guide for the spirit and for knowledge about Messiah and of our Father. And of course as a book to gain understanding on my path, hoping for salvation.
Without knowledge of the Father you will never realize how much you need Him. Without fear of Him you will never become wise unto salvation.
In this world, being without trust in Him, up is down and down is up.
Amillenial meaning we are IN the millenial reign, satan is bound etc
premillenial we are pre-his millenial reign -i stand here
post millenial- the millenial reign already happened -preterists stand here.
You assuming that one's choice is limited to any of those three beliefs. What's actually true is that millennialism is altogether a Christian heresy and taken from Zoroastrianism.
you know what i find interesting is that most religions, philosophies of modern times all agree that things are gonna get worse before they get better
dont lose sight of whats important people, telling another human theyre sinners and heathens doesnt count either haha.
if you cant help people, atleast dont hurt them.
I'll spend a few on my reply...this is a great topic btw.
If I had to answer this question under the three options I would stand with you...Do you have any more lines of questioning for sake of discussion ? Otherwise I am going to expand on this position a little. I hope you do the same and see what we can add to the thread.
May I ask if you are "christian" or are you muslim or something different ?
A lot of times what will help a person is to be real with them. In almost all cases that means telling the raw, uncut and unheard truth. To sugar coat it would only be feeding the carnal, fleshy appetite of man...
There are ways to speak the truth. If it clicks with a person it shows us really that understanding comes down to whether he/she is honestly seeking and open to the hard reality. The Father pulls whom He pulls. Coming at somebody in a foul way, like condemning them foolishly, is not the way to do it.
If a person does not have ears to hear or eyes to see then it is notoriously difficult to convey anything beyond what they want to hear...which is anything that itches and feeds our lusts. Similar to what you believe. It is vanity at best.
Truth in this case is very offensive.
To sin is to transgress the perfect law of Yah...and today the word heathen has a negative connotation. In reality it only means a person not under the eternal and everlasting covenant made. ALl can be partakers of it...Just know that it is not a bad word ment to hurt a person. Anyone who tries to use it that way has no understanding so don't believe them.
There is not one nation today that, as a collective, are subject to the laws and statues of the Most High. This is all about to change however.
Well i brought it up cus i was arguing with some amillenialist about it earlier
interesting...what were some of the points he used to support the claim ?
There are so many scriptures overlooked by that person...
Could you copy and paste any arguments here ?
Amilliennialism is the most common belief, and if we're pitting each position against one another, I feel it is the most sensible. I didn't mean to include it when I was talking about heresy either, I only meant that it should not be one of three choices.
Chiliasm (the teaching of a future literal physical 1000 yr reign of Christ) was common enough in the early church that even some church fathers and saints espoused that view. So there could be a basis for it, although it was denounced in the First Council of Constantinople, 381. This is reflected in the Niceo-Constantinopolitan Creed, where it states that the kingdom "shall have no end." In other words the 1000 years is taken to be a symbolic number representing forever. Amillennialism did win out and the evidence is every major church from the Roman Catholics, to the Eastern Orthodox, even to protestant denominations such as the Lutherans and Calvinists. Premillennialism is largely, if not entirely, an Evangelical thing.
I have nothing to say about postmillennialism. I don't really know where they are coming from.
As for my feelings, I don't think any of these are necessary doctrines. I'm not saying that you should ignore what the Holy Bible says, just that you don't need to attach any of these meanings to it. They aren't the only doctrines of confusion amongst us either.
Hail Satan! LOL
I have a Christian background, and I try to have an open enough mind to view Christian-esque topics from a Christian POV if I feel the issue calls for it. I have read the Bible, and have put in years of research. I'm not always right, and if I'm convinced that I am wrong I will admit it.
I don't consider myself Christian, personally. I don't walk like a Christian, but I can talk like a Christian, I guess.
And no, I'm not a Satanist.
Ya. dudes a pastor too.
"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority iin heaven and on earth has been given to me."-Matthew 28:18
someone else said:
how do post/amill see rev 20
I'm a postmill guy and I do believethatChrist ispresentlyreigning in very much the same way that Adam had all dominion over earth before the fall. Not every area of the globe reflected it and the dominion may not have been visibly present in all areas but it didn't changethefact that he reigned. His dominion would have been a progressive one as he multipliedand his children went out and subdued more regions through a Godly rule had he not sinned.
Same thing with Joshua and Israel. All of the Promised Land was theirs once they entered though the present condition didn't quite reflect the cosmic reality.
Jesus is the second Adam and his name is Yeho-shua, the second Joshua. He has dominion over all the earth and he will not fail atturning theentireearth into the new Promised Land. The second Joshua will conquer his enemies with the word of his power. Though we don't see the reality of it immediately doesn't mean it is not true and currently happening.
if we were in the millenial reign that would mea 1. Jesus already came for.the second time. satan iss locked up right now, and released for a season in the future.
1. Yes, I do think he has come a second, third, fourth, etc times.There are many comingsbut thisdoesn't haveto meanhisfinal coming when hecomeswith the angelsand judgestheearth. He "came" against Jerusalem in 70AD, destroyed the nation, ended the Old Covenant permanently by the destruction of the Temple and it has been impossibleto bea Scripturally faithfulJew sincethattime.This is such a humongous fact that gets overlooked a lot. It has been impossible to be a faithful, Torah keeping Jew since 70AD, exactly one generation after Christ's crucifixion. The old has passed away. All thingsarenew.
2. Yes, I do believeSatan islockedup now but the "locked up" of Rev 20hasa specificparameter.It refersto him being bound in certain terms. With respect to widespread deception of the nations, Satan is bound. Jesus also said Satan was bound in Matt 12:
And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house.
Jesus was plundering Satan's house. He was kicking his Eph. 4:29Eph. 4:29Eph. 4:29Eph. 4:29 and casting out demons. How could he do that? First he had to bind him up. How we understand what is presently happening on earth must first believe that Jesus said Satan is bound up. He is still active but his "arms are tied" in some respect.
amill view hasbeentheview of themajority of the church throughout church history (pretty much from 4th century until the early 1900's).
Most Calvinistsare amill. Some are postmill.There's some of us who are covenant or historic premill (likeme).Premill folk arethe minority.
postmill and amill see Rev. in general as a recapitulation (same event happening, described differently).
The 'first resurrection' of Rev. 20:4-6, in the amill view, is a spiritualresurrection -describing when believerscome to faith in Christ. The second resurrection is the second coming and final judgement.
Amill saysthatthemillennium is not a literal 1000 years, but a long undetermined period of time called the'church age' - so the church age = millennium.
Satan being bound (according to the amill and postmill views) means that he is no longer able to hinder the going forth of the gospel to all of the nations on earth. So it's not just Israel (physical, ethnic) that will be the beneficiaries of God's goodness, but people from "every tongue, trible and nation" (Rev. 5).
It's going to sound weird to you because all you'vebeentaughtand exposed to is dispensational premillennialism - so you're used to reading Revelation sequentially (as if the book goes in order from chapters 4-22).
Amill and postmill folks(and probably most premill reformed folks) will tell you that the language about the temple being rebuilt, etc.... is figurative and not literal. There's no more need for a temple, sacrifices,etc....because Christ has come and offered Himself once for sin (Hebrews 10).
All orthodox positions on Christ's return believe in a 'rapture'. The word comes from latin translation of 1 Thess. 4 for'caught up'. Thedifferences- theamill,postmill and historic premill positions all believe that the 'catching up into the air' (the rapture) is along the same lines as kids running out of the house to meet their dad as he comes up the driveway from work. So believers will be caught up in the air to meet Him as He ascends and then accompany Him right back to earth.
The dispensational premill position is the one that states the rapture happens unexpectedly 7 years before Christ's actual return to Earth.
Postmill and amill disagreeon thenatureof themillennium.Postmill folksbelieveit is an undetermined time period in the future when the gospel will have impacted and converted the majority of the planet and bring in an era of peace and blessings. Amill believeitto bethechurch age and the bulk of the 'millennium blessings' are demonstrated and fulfilled spiritually, not literal/physically
Many have read the bible and still don't understand it....because they are looking at it from mainline pagan christian "googles". For example this 'pastor' thebigpayback is talking to. No offense of course to you. The bible is the most read book and also the most misunderstood book...not to say you are wrong because I don't know what you understand or what you believe out of it. And I don't know everything either like you and it is a wise mark to admit that much too.
For some reason I thought you were Muslim. Am glad to hear you lean toward the Hebrew scriptures. That is a solid foundation to build on.
Go M-Theory, it's your birthday, we going to study scriptures like it's your birthday herp derp
awesome man, I'll help you show and teach this pastor how he is wrong. Lot's to go through but it won't be difficult to show him his error and maybe we can get him on the correct path.
heres where we got to
Meanwhile, things every orthodox position has in common:
1. Christ will return physically, bodily and visibly. (1 Thess. 4:13-17, Rev. 19)
2. There will bea final judgement where those not written in the lamb'sbookof life will becastinto the lake of fire (Rev. 14:9-11, 20:10-15)
3. The entire cosmos (all of creation) will be renewed incorruptible (Rev. 21-22, Romans 8). New creation is about the new heavens and the new Earth. Our final destination is not heaven. We will not be disembodied spirits floating on clouds playing harps.
ONe interesting thing that will prove the error is that the entire book of revelations is already spelled out in the "old testament" so we can use 2 or 3 witnesses to show him...he won't have much to say.
@TheBigPayback @M-theory @Sir Bustalot @x calibur @lyricalpriest @GaLaTeA
if you are here today right now (3pm est time saturday)
come in the paltalk room "the spirit of yah" and fellowship with us as we look at scriptures.
you don't have to talk...I don't talk but listen and chat in text
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