clearing misconceptions about islam and evolution ...

Discussion in 'The Sanctuary' started by Nu'maaN, Dec 11, 2011.

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  1. Nu'maaN

    Nu'maaN Anu'naki, Nuqqa.

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    ... not trying to preach, just clearing up the misconceptions.

    mainly because i'm sick of people grouping islam with other anti-science faiths.

    before i begin, this is my personal research so correct me if i'm wrong on the theory.

    we do not believe in the young earth creationism, but we do believe there is a creator.

    unlike catholic theology which prevailed until the 19th century in the west, we don't believe:
    - the earth is as young as 5757 years old.
    - the world is fixed and not changing.
    - created species are constant and don't evolve.

    it wasn't til 1835 darwin figured out evolution is taking place on earth and that it is driven by natural selection.

    i will now quote the passages in the qur'an, related to evolution.

    there's many verses which indicate all life began with water.

    al-dinawari was the founder for arabic botany, who is quoted to have said "[These books] state that God first created matter and invested it with energy for development. Matter, therefore, adopted the form of vapour which assumed the shape of water in due time. The next stage of development was mineral life. Different kinds of stones developed in course of time. Their highest form being mirjan (coral). It is a stone which has in it branches like those of a tree. After mineral life evolves vegetation. The evolution of vegetation culminates with a tree which bears the qualities of an animal. This is the date-palm. It has male and female genders. It does not wither if all its branches are chopped but it dies when the head is cut off. The date-palm is therefore considered the highest among the trees and resembles the lowest among animals. Then is born the lowest of animals. It evolves into an ape. This is not the statement of Darwin. This is what Ibn Maskawayh states and this is precisely what is written in the Epistles of Ikhwan al-Safa. The Muslim thinkers state that ape then evolved into a lower kind of a barbarian man. He then became a superior human being. Man becomes a saint, a prophet. He evolves into a higher stage and becomes an angel. The one higher to angels is indeed none but God. Everything begins from Him and everything returns to Him."

    does that tie in with the evolution theory? yes/no.

    not the part about the angels or a saint, but the first part? honest question.

    the word mashiyyat in arabic can be translated to rendering.

    many many years before darwin came with the natural selection theory, there was al-jahiz, an arab-afro biologist who introduced the concept of "struggle for existence". this was in 8th century.

    he is quoted to have said "Animals engage in a struggle for existence; for resources, to avoid being eaten and to breed. Environmental factors influence organisms to develop new characteristics to ensure survival, thus transforming into new species. Animals that survive to breed can pass on their successful characteristics to offspring."

    didn't darwin come with a very similar theory in the 18th century?

    i'm not sitting here claiming islam had it all before darwin came, but to claim that islam is anti-science or anti-evolution theory is pretty lame and ignorant.

    most if not all muslim countries encourage the study of evolutionary biology.

    but the real sad part is most muslims don't believe in darwin's theory, which is very similar to that derived from the qur'an by arab biologists in the 8th century.

    ready for any corrections if i've made any errors in this post.

    :numaan:
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  2. Sir Bustalot

    Sir Bustalot I am Jesus

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    interesting stuff...

    i didnt have any misconceptions, I didnt have any conceptions though either because its the one religion i probably know the least about.(and i dont claim to have a vast knowlegde of any religion)

    but doesnt Creationism pretty much refer specifically to a certain brand of christianity?

    thats what i think of when i hear "creationist"

    its always been a christian thing to me
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  3. Jay Bee

    Jay Bee Boricua

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    pretty interesting stuff. i didn't realize the quran even mentioned stuff like this. it sounds like your willing to consider evolution as a possibilty without straying away from your beliefs.

    whats your personal opinion on evolution as a whole?
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  4. Nu'maaN

    Nu'maaN Anu'naki, Nuqqa.

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    i can't answer that, wouldn't know where to start.

    but i used to think creationism was it, until i actually read on it and it claimed that all beings are constant, there is no evolution, and the earth is very young.

    that's the point where i dismissed creationism, but i still believe that there is a creator.

    not a possibility, i'm pretty sure that it's what happened.

    whenever i heard "evolution theory" i used to think, we came from monkeys?

    but then i browsed around here, read a few posts, read a few recommended books from other users, and figured it makes alot more sense than creationism, etc.

    the more i read on the evolution theory, the more it makes sense to me.

    and me tying the theory back to qur'anic verses is just the muslim in me.

    no homo.

    correct me if i'm wrong here, i haven't read everything there is to know.

    what i gathered from it is, everything started from water, all living things.

    the order in which i believe the evolution occured is as follows:
    1. matter (i think god created it, you think otherwise - that's not the point).
    2. matter was then invested with energy.
    3. matter became vapour, which then in turn took the form of water.
    4. the next stage was mineral life.
    5. different stones developed, the highest being coral.
    6. after mineral, evolved vegetation.
    7. evolution of vegetation culminates with a tree (date palm).
    8. date palm has animal qualities, there is a male and female.
    9. it is thus considered the highest among trees, but lowest among animals.
    10. then born is the lowest of animals.
    11. it then evolves/renders into an ape.
    12. ape became lower barbarian man.
    13. and so on and so forth until we saw the result of homo sapiens.

    this is what i have gathered thus far, so correct me if i'm mistaken.

    i've also read that we are all derived from one common ancestor. now what i want to know is could that ancestor be adam? is adam a homosapien or was he a barbarian man?

    am also having a look at the qur'an for any reference to heliocentricism.

    but i'm taking it one step at a time, have always been intrigued by evolution.

    :numaan:
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  5. Sir Bustalot

    Sir Bustalot I am Jesus

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    well in general im pretty sure when people mention creationism theyre referring to the christians who believe in this....

    Ive only ever seen it applied to christianity, and claimed by christianity

    i worked with a creationist christian... he was taught that wack shit in church
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  6. Nu'maaN

    Nu'maaN Anu'naki, Nuqqa.

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    the only other problem/issue i was having with the theory was - if we evolved from other beings, who or how did the first being come about?

    then i found this in the qur'an.

    so, according to the evolution theory, does it mention the relationship of the creation of human beings with the planet earth?

    since we are all made of earthly things?

    :numaan:
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  7. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    If ur clearing up islam misconseptions. How bout not start by spreading christian ones
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  8. Nu'maaN

    Nu'maaN Anu'naki, Nuqqa.

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    i'm not spreading any misconceptions about christians.

    was it not true that the church put galilleo under house arrest for claiming that the earth revolved around the sun, and not the other way around? yeah, they later apologised, and i know you don't believe in the pope and all, but it still happened.

    and is it also not true that creationism was bought forth by christian theologists? does creationism not think that the earth is only 5757 years old? does it also not claim that nothing is changing or evolving?

    i'm not spreading any false shit here, only clearing misconceptions about islam.

    anyway, where are the god bashers at now? i just want to know answers.

    you claim that religious folk are stupid (snowy), yet in the qur'an it mentions universes, not just one, but multiverses - so tell me, how are we backwards?

    this thread is not an attack at anyone, if you have answers to my questions - post.

    :numaan:
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  9. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    The catholic churches teachings do not constitue christian beliefs of biblical ones.

    No no one believes the earth is 5700 yrs old. Young earth creationists calculate it to be around 14000 yrs. But any guesses on that isnt biblically based either.
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  10. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    The problem here is your taking things in church history for biblical concepts. Misguided interpretations dont make them what the bible teaches. If u wanna generalize christianity pull from the bible not from history books, or catholic tradition.
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  11. Nu'maaN

    Nu'maaN Anu'naki, Nuqqa.

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    i had a feeling creationism had more to do with catholicism.

    as it was the vatican church who had imprisoned galilleo.

    if it isn't biblically based, then why not refute it and clear the misconceptions.

    that's what i'm trying to do.

    :numaan:
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  12. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    Cus catholic/ christian is oil and water. Its not the same consistancy. They dont use the holy bible they have books which are not in the canon to support things they make people believe.
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  13. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    Just get it biblically if its a christian belief generalization.
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  14. Nu'maaN

    Nu'maaN Anu'naki, Nuqqa.

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    you'd know more about the bible than me.

    anyway, fair points - i've replaced christian with catholic in the initial post.

    :numaan:
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  15. Look im Gangsta

    Look im Gangsta New Member

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    Comparing your religion to another doesn't really do it any favours.
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  16. Nu'maaN

    Nu'maaN Anu'naki, Nuqqa.

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    i'm not comparing, i'm seperating it from other religions.

    and i've asked questions, that still haven't been answered.

    :numaan:
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  17. Look im Gangsta

    Look im Gangsta New Member

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    I'm sure you're just going to troll me again.
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  18. TheBigPayback

    TheBigPayback God Particle

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    Does the koran talk about the rhythms of the body and rhythms of the earth complimenting each other
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  19. Coup d'état

    Coup d'état Don't believe the hype

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    On Evolution (my research)






    There are some questions that the theory of Evolution tries to answer, but can't. Though the rhetoric concerning it is more fitting of fairy tales than science.

    There are important questions in life humans often raise with good reason:

    1. Who am I ?
    2. Where did I come from ?
    3. How much am I worth ?
    4. Where do I go when I die ?

    The theory of Evolution can not be proven correct and is a complete lie. There has been a 250,000 offer for anyone who can provide real evidence biased on real science rather than science fiction.

    This offer has been standing for 15 years and still stands today.

    According to the humanist view point (Humanist is a world view on a foundation of Evolution and means that eventually humans can be come God) we can answer question one as this: You are proto plasm that washed up on the beach.

    Question two can be answered too, according to evolution you came from a cosmic burp and you have no purpose. You are worth nothing. So if it feels good Ladies and gentle men do it ! Where do you go when you die? You are worm food.

    In the bible: Genesis 3:1 We learn where Satan first begins his deception that calls to kill off humanity and bring us away from God unto hell. He lies to Eve telling her to be like God, for Satan hates that we are made in God's image. This dumb theory of Evolution and the humanist view point roots in: (remember, Evolution is a Humanist world view to become like Gods)

    Genesis 3:1-5

    The fall of man

    Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

    Romans 5:12

    Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned
    Life came first, then death by and because of sin. As you will see, the humanist world view, founded hard by Evolution, is COMPLETELY opposite and perversive from the Word of our living God. Starting to see this ?
    Doubt of Gods word is because of Satan and this happened from the start. Right then and there Evolution got started and it did not begin with Darwin. Theories of man evolving from lesser organisms into Godly ones has been taught throughout the ages. The Egyptians taught that man evolved from a fungus out of the Nile river (Mosses was taught this!), the empire of Greece taught different forms of it too...Darwin made it very popular. Satan is a liar, you can not become God. Though Lucifer wants to: We look onto the book of

    Isaiah 14:12-14

    How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

    It's important to note how Satan tricked Eve into eating from the tree of knowledge. He put a little truth into the lie so that it would seem right. But there was also poison ...Again, tell a lie mixed in with a little truth it may be believed.

    Like rat food, mix in a little poison (lie) with some good food and you kill the rat at his own doing...in deception of course. Like Marlboro cigarettes: Place a cowboy image into the advertising and mix in the harmful effects of the cigarette. Will you become a cowboy smoking Marlboro's ? No. Do you have to be a cowboy to smoke Marlboro's ? No. Do all cowboys smoke Marlboro's ? No. Also, like beer and sports marketing/advertising. Will you become a football player by drinking Budweiser ? No. Do all football players drink Budweiser ? No.

    Adolf Hitler Said it best:

    “If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed”
    The same can be said about the State Religion of Evolution. Mix in a little bit of good science with the bad posion...and behold! Tell kids in the ST grade the Earth is billions and billions and billions of years old and Evolution they will believe you.

    Moving on....

    Evolution is a tricky word. There are several meanings of it and several definitions of it to explain the formation/starting of several things:

    Cosmic evolution: the origin of time, space, and matter from nothing in the “big bang”. origin of time space matter. Before you can have a coherent theory of Evolution you need to establish how time, space and matter came about. It's a continuum, you can't have one without the other. Can't have space without time etc...

    God did it best, creating time, space and matter.

    " In the beginning God created the heaven and Earth" Genesis 1

    Chemical evolution: all elements “evolved” from hydrogen. The origin of higher elements from hydrogen. I've never seen or heard a evolutionist discuss this one or address the topic. They say the Big Bang created Hydrogen and some Helium, well then how did we get all the other elements ?
    Do you want me to believe Uranium evolved from hydrogen ? They say oh yeah, that was in fusion in stars! But you can not fuse past iron. Even if you could you got a serious chicken and egg problem: What came first, the stars to make the elements ? Or the elements to make the stars ? Chemical evolution is not observed, it is purely theoretical

    Stellar evolution: stars and planets formed from gas clouds. No one has ever observed a star forming. There is no scientific or physical evidence on how stars can form...it is not observed. But evolutionist have to have it happen. There are enough stars out there for each person on earth to own 11 trillion each.

    Organic evolution: life begins from inanimate matter. Evolutionist believe in spontaneous life generation from non living material. How did this happen ? You can believe anything you want to believe but I want to see scientific evidence.


    Macro-evolution: animals and plants change from one type into another

    Micro-evolution: variations form within the “kind” The text books are constantly changing the meaning of the word Evolution. Some say: Evolution, change over time. Saying living things change over time. What happened to the first 4 stages of evolution ? Are we going to assume these happen ? They don't have a coherent theory.
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  20. Coup d'état

    Coup d'état Don't believe the hype

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    Then they say Evolution can be defined as a change in species over time.

    Yes, species can have lots of variations but this is not really evolution. It's a lie, they want you to believe all 6 parts of the theory of evolution are true by only giving you evidence from number 6 (micro/variation).

    People say, can't Micro evolution really be just Macro over long periods of time ? No. Most evolutionist will tell you that macro-evolution is just micro-evolution over longer periods of time. This is dreaming! " The central question at the Chicago conference was whether the mechanisms underling micro-evolution can be extrapolated to explain the phenomena of macro-evolution...the answer can be given as a clear no"

    Rodger Lewin "Evolution Theory Under Fire"

    Let's talk about variation or micro evolution:

    1. Variation certainly happens, but variation is limited. Farmers have been trying to get bigger pigs for long periods of time, but they will never get a pig the size of Texas. Cock roaches become resistant to pesticides, but never will become resistant to a sledge hammer.

    A common evidence is does not bacteria become resistant to drugs ? To advance their view, evolutionist have long pointed to mutations with beneficial effects. The most common example given: mutations sometimes make bacteria resistant to antibiotics (germ killing drugs). And so, the argument goes "if mutations can make bacteria stronger they must be able to do the same for other creatures." Dr. Spetner points out that this is biased on a misunderstanding, for the mutations that cause resistance to antibiotics still involve information loss.

    For example, to destroy a bacterium, the antibiotic streptomycin attachés to the part of the bacterial called ribosomes. Mutations sometimes cause structural deformity in ribosomes. Since the antibiotic cannot connect with the misshapen ribosome, the bacteria is resistant. But even though this mutation turns out to be beneficial (for the moment), it still constitutes as a lose in genetic information, not a gain. NO evolution has taken place; the bacteria are not "STRONGER". In fact, under normal conditions with no antibiotic present they are weaker than their non mutated cousins.

    -From Case Against Darwin Ch. 2

    That is not a process that is going to turn a rock into a person over millions of years.

    2. They (creatures) produce the same kind of animal or plant. This is not evolution

    3. The information for the variation was always present. The information in the gene pool is never added to. Dogs do not become pink and learn to fly.

    4. The gene pool of the new variety is more limited than before and less able to adapt to future changes. Chihuahuas cannot produce Great Danes. Breeders select pre existing information.

    5. So, genetic information was lost not added

    6. Real evolution would require an increase in genetic complexity and not just a shift in gene frequency. How long would a Chihuahua last in the real world ?
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