assuming that Genesis is true...

Discussion in 'The Sanctuary' started by x calibur, Sep 7, 2012.

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  1. x calibur

    x calibur

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    I have a number of issues with the Abrahamic God of the Old Testament.

    He creates two human progenitors, and places them in an ideal environment where they can live in harmony with their creator. This sounds all well and good, but then there is a forbidden tree bearing pomegranates. To eat this fruit will curse Adam & Eve, and their descendants, to sin and death. You might argue that they needed choice in order to be beings of free will. However, the results of their actions extend to all of their descendants, who never had any choice in the matter. On top of this, God permits one of his creations, a talking snake, to TROLL them into eating the fruit.

    Keep in mind that these humans are in an infantile state, and have been set up to fail. The moment they ate the fruit and "had their eyes opened", they were cast out of Eden, and cursed with death and Original Sin. From the human perspective, this was an absolute catastrophe. From this point on, the human race is consigned to trial and tribulations, and an inherently flawed state. What originally seemed like the ultimate kindness, the Garden of Eden, is now a hideous taunt; a sneering mockery of what we had but will never get back.

    God, in His Infinite Wisdom, must've known what would come of Original Sin and the Fall of Man. Stuff like war, genocide, rape, torture, murder, plague, famine, drought, mental illness, and more. And last but not least, God must've known that a large portion of His creations would fail the test of living, and BURN IN HELL FOR ALL ETERNITY!!! But He merely shrugs his heavenly shoulders like, "Oh well lol!"

    The moral and reasonable action here would've been for God to turn Adam & Eve back into dust after the Fall, and abort the entire human race. Then he could've given us a second chance with new sets of progenitors, until he got it right and created sentient beings who were not inherently flawed. What is so Good about creating sentient individuals if they're going to be so cursed and contaminated?

    Thus it began. But God wasn't done yet. When most of Adam & Eve's descendants fell into wrongful ways, due to an inherited defect from their original ancestors, they were not redeemed or repaired. Rather, they were drowned by a cataclysmic worldwide flood. Later, the history of the Israelites depicts God as reaching down and murdering individuals, groups, and whole populations simply for doing something wrong. His vindictiveness extends beyond the individual to multiple generations of his descendants.

    And then there are the laws he puts forth. Death by stoning for sexual and religious indiscretions? I find it inconceivable that the laws of the creator would appear exactly like backward tribal customs. And his vanity is extreme, demanding worship and setting arbitrary rules. He enthrones and glorifies himself above all others just for the sake of doing so.

    Things do take a turn for the better in the New Testament. It was nice of God to offer up his son as a sacrifice to redeem the human race. However, this begs the question of what happened to all the people who came before this, and those who had never heard of Jesus. Not only that, but even this loophole is arbitrary in nature. You are not redeemed from eternal oblivion by virtue of how right or wrong you were. Rather, it all depends on whether you accepted and formed a relationship with Jesus. If you did not, you are rejected, even if you lived correctly.

    Then there is Revelations. God will permit a nightmarish cataclysm to unfold, allowing powerful evil entities to gain sweeping powers over the earth before it all collapses. Massive death and destruction will envelop the world, the like of which has never been seen. Why should God do all this if he is moral and reasonable?

    To recap, he sets up the human race to fail, curses us as inherently defective, burdens us with a flawed and sinful existence, and nukes it all like some sort of maniac. And the only people who get into the metaphysical realm in one piece are those who submitted to an arbitrary loophole.

    And not only is the loophole arbitrary, but it demands that we go against our very nature. If God didn't want us to be sexual, why were we given unto such passions? If God wanted us to stay ignorant and unquestioning, why were we given a drive for knowledge? If God wanted us to be obedient and selfless, why are we so individualistic? It's like we're being set against ourselves at every turn.

    The biblical god Yahweh is a brutal tyrant, for whom creation and existence must seem like an enormous practical joke.
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  2. x calibur

    x calibur

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    also, this site had a database error right when I posted this.

    :scared:
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  3. Sir Bustalot

    Sir Bustalot I am Jesus

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    database errors make me punchy


    this is my problem with organized religion. First off its an elite club and as you put it, the only people who can join are those "who submitted to an arbitrary loophole"
    which would be fine if it was rules to a country club, but were talking the ultimate. So its not fine. Specially when supposedly god made us this way.

    religion is neat and really fascinating, but i think its different than spirituality. Religion has spirituality in it. Spirituality does not contain a religion. Ravens can be crows, but a crow cant be a raven.
    I dont know the point i was trying to make. Im not as versed on this shit as you motherlovers, but versed enough to see logical flaws in organized religion.

    i cant see any in religion-free spirituality. And if there was a god like the christians say, im pretty sure all he cares about is the spirituality if anything. So remove the religion from any organized religion and you pretty much get the same thing

    like its an orange and the ultimate goal is the actual fruit inside. Who gives a shit about the peel, the peel is just a barrier. Peel it away and we all get the fruit

    mmmmm oranges
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  4. Carpe Noctem

    Carpe Noctem Neos Helios

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    Yeah.

    You really have to question the benevolence of a god who would create something as dangerous as the tree of knowledge without any necessity behind it.

    It seems more fitting of a sadistic, trickster god who revels in chaos.
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  5. JASON ANTHONY

    JASON ANTHONY White Devil

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    One could argue that before they ate the fruit from the tree, Adam and Eve were in fact gullible drones with the same charge as every other beast roaming the earth: Procreation. They were so easily coaxed (by a talking snake mind you) into believing they could be like god with one bight of fruit. The fruit (or you could argue that Satan himself) made us who we are today. I think if the bible were true, God created man with free will, but damned us with ignorance.
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  6. Nu'maaN

    Nu'maaN Anu'naki, Nuqqa.

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    c'mon man, you're blaming god for the falls of humanity?

    when god was creating adam, the angels asked "why will you put a vicegerent on earth, that will only create mischeif and shed blood", to which god responded "i know that which you know not". god has his ultimate wisdom behind everything, who are we as mere mortals to question the logic behind his actions?

    again, this is my response based on the qur'an, and not genesis.

    we bring curses upon ourselves through our own actions.

    there's free will, yes - but it's ultimately up to us how we go about things.

    there's no concept of inherited sin in islam.

    each man bears his own fruit.

    why not? there must be rules. perhaps these are the rules that god was referring to when he told the angels "i know that which you know not".

    if you read the qur'an, it mentions god claiming to be the king of kings, lord of the universes, which were pretty much direct responses to the pharaoahic humans who claimed to be gods themselves.

    everything in this life we know, is not permanent.

    it all must come to an end someday.

    in order to control the desires.

    if we, as humans, don't control desires, we are no different to the beasts.

    nowhere in the qur'an does it mention to remain ignorant.

    the prophet muhammad said "go to lengths in order to gain knowledge".

    if we were all obedient and selfless, we'd be no different to the angels.

    but we're in between the angels and the beasts, we are humans.

    we have enough free will to question, and enough angel qualities to worship.

    i know you were not mentioning the qur'an, but within the unadulterated books of old, there are some truths of the god of the universes.

    what if i make orange juice with it?

    don't.

    you're blaming all the shortfalls of humanity on the creator?

    if you did something stupid and ignorant, i won't blame your parents.

    it's not the same thing, but i'm trying to get at something that you're not seeing.

    :numaan:
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  7. reggie jax

    reggie jax Well-Known Member

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    not sure how you get around the charge that god knew mankind would fail ahead of time as he was 'designing' him and still didn't fix the flaws in his design.
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  8. Sir Bustalot

    Sir Bustalot I am Jesus

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    then you will no longer be thirsty
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  9. Nu'maaN

    Nu'maaN Anu'naki, Nuqqa.

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    if he wanted obedient selfless servants, he'd have made us angels.

    there was already angels before us, humanity was a test of loyalty i guess.

    until the day of reckoning, there will be respite given to shaytan/iblees/satan.

    we could sit here all day questioning why god did what he did, but it won't do anything.

    :numaan:
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  10. reggie jax

    reggie jax Well-Known Member

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    i didn't say anything about obedient selfless servants. you're assuming that the only way he could have improved on mankind was to remove his free will.

    but that's just such obvious nonsense. one of the primary sins man is most often guilty of is based on a sex drive that is hard-wired into his biological design. other offenses include having the wrong beliefs and praying to the wrong gods (i.e. using the brains that god designed to come to the wrong conclusions). even the more brutal offenses have biological underpinnings which make some more likely than others to commit them.

    so if the only alternative to 'obedient drones' is 'designed to disobey' then i'm not sure i see the wisdom in that plan.
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  11. Nu'maaN

    Nu'maaN Anu'naki, Nuqqa.

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    having sex is not a sin.

    having sex outside marriage is, and there's wisdom behind it.

    it's not a sin to explore other religions.

    if you were born in a buddhist household and never heard of islam, you're fine.

    i don't know, i'm not god - i guess you gotta save these arguments for him.

    :numaan:
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  12. reggie jax

    reggie jax Well-Known Member

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    marriage is essentially just a ritual which has nothing to do with biology. your sex drive is there whether you're married or not, so no, there's no wisdom behind that.


    i'd be interested in reading the verse from the quran which says its ok to explore other religions.

    in any case, your response seems to leave open the possibility that if that buddhist does hear of islam and doesn't convert, then he's fucked.

    that's fine. nothing wrong with not knowing.

    but my post was based on your argument that we shouldn't blame the 'falls of humanity' on god.
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  13. Nu'maaN

    Nu'maaN Anu'naki, Nuqqa.

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    yes there is, it eliminates bastards.

    bastard children make up 99% of the prison systems (an exaggeration).

    i don't think it's in the qur'an, but there are sayings of the prophet.

    plenty of words of encouragement to explore other beliefs/knowledge.

    no, that wasn't my point but okay.

    if you want to look it at that way, then it's up to you. who am i.

    islam takes a stance against idolatory, jews and christians practised safely in muhammad's time.

    but that's my point.

    the only time you guys "believe" in a god is when you're blaming him.

    you don't believe a god exists, so wouldn't it be better to blame humanity?

    :numaan:
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  14. Nu'maaN

    Nu'maaN Anu'naki, Nuqqa.

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    but then again, this thread is just about assumptions.

    meh.

    :numaan:
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  15. reggie jax

    reggie jax Well-Known Member

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    that can be an argument in favor of marriage, but it can't be an argument in favor of the system god set up where non-married people are nonetheless hardwired to want to fuck.


    doesn't seem like the same thing as endorsing 'exploring other religions.'


    it seems to me that islam openly condemns not only worshipping any other god, but also failing to worship the right god.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirk_(Islam)

    this doesn't mean muslims couldn't peacefully coexist with people of other faiths.

    well obviously it's a hypothetical argument. there was once a time when i believed some of this stuff was true(not islam, but the bible in general), so its not entirely hard for me to imagine.

    but in any case no i wouldn't blame humanity for the same things for which god would otherwise be responsible (the actual design scheme), as that's not something that's under anyone's control.

    i'd blame humans for their own actions but only as a fellow member of the human race, never from the absurd position of an engineer holding in contempt something he had hand-crafted himself.
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  16. Aesthet1c

    Aesthet1c The Morning Star

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    Here's the real question. Why don't you question the new testament the humans come out with every year?
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  17. x calibur

    x calibur

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    I meant to get back sooner, I've just been busy.

    I am criticizing god for setting up humans to fall.

    of course it's possible that my limited mind can't see through gods plan, but it would have to be some sort of inconceivable loop of logic to justify all that I described. based on theology and philosophy, my criticisms are on solid ground, and I don't see how they could be worked around based on the Old Testament.

    also, I believe that authority should always be questioned.

    that is far more reasonable. a creator that gives free will to his subjects, and simply judges them by their merits, is not a bad god.

    however, the doctrine of Original Sin states that humans were cursed by it ever since. so much so, that no one could be redeemed before god except by

    1. being born an israelite and following the complex, arbitrary rules set forth
    2. after Jesus' ministry, accepting him as your savior.

    humans are considered fallen and sinful, and must submit to arbitrary loopholes and also rely on sheer luck in order to find a decent existence in the hereafter. this is not a reasonable grand scheme on gods part.

    I can't imagine that any god worthy of worship, who crafted the elegant, rational universe, would set forth laws that look exactly like backward tribal customs.

    it's one thing for god to proclaim himself as god, it's another to exhibit traits of jealousy, vindictiveness and vanity as depicted in the bible.

    perhaps, but must it end so hideously? revelations speaks of giant human/scorpion hybrids who sting people to torment them while preventing them from dying. oceans and rivers turning to blood, massive war, sickness, destruction and slaughter. and then the 666/616 beasts ruling the world before the collapse. wtf?

    still, god sets our most powerful desires against his greatest taboos. it's one thing to have a primal nature, it's another to be wired to the opposite of gods intentions. if gods arbitrary rules are correct, why aren't they more natural to follow?

    which I can respect. I'm not targeting the Qu'ran though.

    it's understandable that god would create a race with free will, then judge us on our own merits. but the arrangement I described is not. creating us only to fall into an inherently flawed state, permitting all sorts of devastation, and consigning souls to eternal hell are not reasonable actions by any stretch.

    the truths of the Bible must be scattered amongst distortions.
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  18. x calibur

    x calibur

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    I'm not going after the validity of Scripture. I'm starting with the assumption that it's all true and correct, then criticizing the content on moral and philosophic ground.
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  19. Nu'maaN

    Nu'maaN Anu'naki, Nuqqa.

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    fair points.

    all of them.

    :numaan:
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  20. x calibur

    x calibur

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    word.

    also, I was serious with this thread. If I were placed in some sort of cosmic courtroom, and had to confront the lord god YHWH and speak for the human race, these are the points I would make.

    also, feel free to copy and paste my essay in the OP post, I wrote it with that in mind.
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