Are concepts/ideas objective?

Discussion in 'IntroSpectrum' started by Sodium, Jun 7, 2007.

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  1. Sodium

    Sodium I Get Computers Putin'

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    ive been thinking more and more that ideas exist in some way objectively and eternally and that people come into this universe of ideas and stumble onto different ones like a sort of infinite game. so that x idea exists objectively and some person comes into the world and, through a specific process, dicovers it in the same way that if one had a boat one could sail to an island. my reasoning is that, one could tap into whatever idea/concept and through that become anything/do anything. so long as they could somehow get to it.

    this gives me crazy ideas like what are the specific processes that lead to certain ideas. what routes lead to what islands. i dont just mean like reading a book or some shit like that. its more subtle i think. if you could see all of these things you could have total control over reality and do whatever you want with it. you could see all the options at your disposal so to speak. i liken it to what was refferred to in star wars as the force. its hard to describe and im not sure i'm getting what i mean across.

    riz and mcgirth get at me im interested in your opinions in particulary.
    test
  2. McGirth

    McGirth New Member

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    When it comes to ideas, there are two factors you need to consider:
    1) human nature and its effects on ideas.
    2) the nature of things in themselves.

    It can be argued that ideas exist in nature that accurately summarize/predict nature, for example the law of gravity. This is not just limited to natural phenomenon, but can also apply to things that concern humans, for instance, the laws that govern the truth of ideas themselves. Further, if humans/nature is malleable, then humans have the capacity to not just alter the natural world/human world, but also the "true" ideas governing them. Its possible that some "eternal" forms can be changed.

    But i'm going off topic now.

    To return to the point, humans are the sort of creatures that can hold ideas in mind. Ideas are bendable by experience/speech. The pool of ideas in the universe of ideas is thus probably infinite, or close to it. Yet, the ideas people hold will depend on what ideas are being transmitted either explicitly or implicitly in a society as well as their personal experience (which is again mostly determined by society). I'm not saying the transmission is intended or anything, it can be quite subconscious. It can even skip generations and meaning behind say, writing or fables, can be rediscovered over time. By "society" i speak of the whole of human society from its beginning onwards, not current governments actions/reactions.

    So to summarize we have (1) an infinite pool of ideas, (2) "true" ideas that summarize/predict nature, including human nature, (3) processes that turn us to think particular things, which include things like literature, myths, scientific journals, etc. (basically all speech, writing, the world we can experience)

    Now, people can "stumble" into (or it can be planned, this is what good political theory is for afterall) certain ideas, both "true" and warped ideas from the infinite pool, which are the result of the processes spoken of. So ideas that one stumbles into are not necessarily true, in fact, they are 99.99999999% likely to be partly false. Everyone is subject to the rhetorical processes and mistakes of inference by limited experience.

    Reason, dialectic, and the scientific methodology are all tools a person or an organization can use to "clean" out the false ideas from the true. All good ideas, however, begin with the fundamental ability to have insights into reality. These are sorts of epiphanies about reality, which i get and i think others also get on here (including yourself). To what degree they are true or not we cant really know YET. Personally, I'm like a poor man panning for gold having just happened to find a stream with much of what seems like gold, I don't really want to take time or the tools to analyze each piece of the shiny stuff I find, till I've gathered all the insights up along the shores. However, as life progresses and I hopefully use some of these insights to generate wealth, then the time and the means will open up.

    so to bring it back to the metaphors you used, some ideas don't lead to islands, they lead to mirages. Since mirages are fake, they are virtually infinite along with the ideas that lead to them. Ideas that go to islands or close to them are likely finite, but also probably malleable, if you figure out a way to move the islands. Ideas that lead to islands either come from insight OR from maps (books, etc), yet as always we can be lead astray into mirages.
    test
  3. Sodium

    Sodium I Get Computers Putin'

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    this reminds me of uh you ever play street fghter? in street fghter there are true strategies and false strategies that exist before anyone ever actually plays. they exist before anything. the people who end up destroying other people in the arcade are the ones who have tapped into the true strategies and are harmonius with them. they are highly nuanced and involved so its not suprising that most never are able to get to them. only some ever do.

    i think the same could be said of anything that could be called an endeavor; any endeavor. its kind of funny. it feels like a game the way the universe has been structured. like a giant game. in this game choices must be made. in essence strategies must be selected to achieve what is desired. in government, in life, in law school, in street fighter. but so many mirages and so easy to fuck around and walk into one. i guess thats why its a game. life must be designed to be difficult or else it wouldn't be a game. existence would just be an endless void of no consequence without the constant overcoming of challenges that is life.

    i keep asking why the universe is the way it is and why a god would make it like this. all i can think of is that a universe of choice making agents is more interesting than a universe without them. they do interesting things. i think this universe has been embedded with true strategies and false strategies (the mirages) by whatever created it just like in street fighter. the challenges of life are required for the choice making agents to make choices that allow them to overcome, ultimately on their individual searches to be happy. its an interesting game.

    good post mcg
    test
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