anybody not recognizing Nas as the greatest lyricist in hip-hop's history of a fuckin

Discussion in 'Hip-Hop Central' started by Nimrod, Aug 13, 2008.

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  1. .:Pain:.

    .:Pain:. Futurely J. Keeper

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    Ugh, lemme learns ya somethin' real quick.

    It's times like these I freestyle biased opinions every other sentence
    My journalistic ethics slip when I pass them off as objective
    "Don't gimme that ethical shit."

    Sentence rhymes with ethics, which abstractly rhymes with objective if you pronounce it right, anyways, the point is, the emphasis is on the ethics slip/ ethical shit rhyme, the other three are just internal rhyme scheme.

    All your favorite rappers alter pronunciation to make words rhyme, another thing that makes you an idiot, cuz if you knew shit about the technical aspects of songwriting, you would've noticed this a long, long time ago...
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  2. .:Pain:.

    .:Pain:. Futurely J. Keeper

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    I also think I should say that Nas is 10x the rapper Sage is or ever will be, but Sage is a pure lyricist. Lyricism is his forte, mainstream rappers can't fuck with rappers like him on lyrical basis.

    I'm a huge Nas fan, I own, not downloaded, every Nas album ever released, I listen to two Sage albums and only about 5 songs of his total. He can't make a hook to save his life, his voice is fucked and I hate listening to him most of the time, but when you compare lyrics, you hafta be blind to not see that he's a better LYRICIST, but not a better rapper...
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  3. NinjaMic

    NinjaMic Brian Disease

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    I think Mos Def's content as a lyricist and his dialogue... is really underrated. A great mind, with an amazing flow.

    Aren't lyrics laid in measure and meter when structured into verse for song - even with the hook? Some kind of rythm is always a part of it... yet, there is a million ways to ride a beat. Young Joc has completely symmetrical, even structure in stanza and delivers it with few words, entirely in meter.... but Bun B ignores these rules... Raekwon and Ghost ignore these rules... Snoop ignores these rules... Luda does it, Andre does it... Biggie does it... Cube does it... Monche does it... Meth, Redman, Mos Def, Bizzy, Weezy, Sean Price and Ruck - you name it, they do no have repetetive, back and forth flow.

    There's always this offkilter, natural rythm found in being attuned to every aspect of melody and bass, not just being repetetive over a simple percussion line. I almost always hear something that artists who are criticized for their lack of flow are doing technically... it's like a jujitsu, tai chi form of literally attacking the beat and trying to manipulate words. A perfect example is Raekwon on "Faster Blade" or Common on "Get Em High"
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  4. reggie_jax

    reggie_jax rapper noyd

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    yea, i was just being a smart ass, because your opinion is obviously set and you're not going to listen to anyone who doesn't have a college degree in listening to rap music.

    if you want me to be more to the point with my response.. then you are being arrogant and flaunting your crushing intellect and doctorate in dope rhyme-ology... as a means of backing up your point.

    basically what i was getting at originally that while the verse does have some words that rhyme, that hardly qualifies a rap song in my book.. i expect more than just the bare minimum of sub par rhymes to tie a verse together and make it a rap verse instead of a poem.. many poems rhyme at the ends of the sentences anyway... so it's my opinion that he'd do better as a poet. as a rapper.. i just can't bring myself to like thim.. and it goes beyond his akward style and nerdy voice... he doesn't seem to put any effort into word placement, or making good rhymes.. which is the cornerstone of rap lyricism. you can't just say whatever you want over a beat and call it a rap song. and if you do choose to do that then expect people to boo you when your shit barely rhymes and sounds akward. if i wanted cryptic literature that's meant to be deep i could read a book or some poetry.. and there are many authors who i believe could blow sage out of the water in that dept.. and there are many rappers who rhyme better than him. so no, he isn't a top rap lyricist because he ignores the core elements of the artform and calls his poems rap.
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  5. 6thSense

    6thSense Ashwin

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    He's gotta lay off the crack rap though. It's almost like he can't make a great album without talking about it. That era is over Ghostface homie, lay it off. lol

    Yo if you compare Nas' most lyrical song with quite a few MCs' most lyrical songs, Nas might lose. But he's been consistently one of the best lyricists for well over a decade and a half although he's experienced his fair share of valleys in his career. That's where most other MCs fail.

    No one is perfect and everyone's got his faults. So I just appreciate the uniqueness each rapper brings to the game. Except for ringtone and mtv rappers, those motherfuckers are never unique.
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  6. Ixtlan

    Ixtlan emceeingain'tforyou...

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    Easily one of the greatests of all-time.
    No argument there. THE greatest? That's a tough call.
    Not for my money.
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  7. .:Pain:.

    .:Pain:. Futurely J. Keeper

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    Nice cover. And fuck a college degree, anyone that has a basic sense of lyricism could see what I'm sayin'.

    God you're retarded. None of the rhymes are, "sub par," they all consist of more than one syllable rhyming, and include many internal rhyme schemes and multiples. Nas rhymes one syllable per bar much more than Sage does. So does Prodigy. How the fuck are you gonna put him lower rhyming wise then them? Fuck, by your standards pretty much only Royce and Eminem could be considered skilled.

    Now you're just bullshitting to back your arguement.

    You mean like Nas on Nazareth Savage? Or DMX for just about every song on his first three albums?

    You are just fuckin' dense. All his bars rhyme at the end of the bar, he has a strong sense of rhythm and you'll hear if you LISTEN TO THE FUCKING SONG. The bars are so extended because the beat is slow, thus allowing him to fit more syllables into each bar. I assume that's what you meant when you said core elements. Every rapper calls their poems rap, just like every rock musician calls their poems rock songs. Songwriting is just a rhythm based form of poetry.
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  8. reggie_jax

    reggie_jax rapper noyd

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    yea...


    nas rhymes way better than sage, and prodigy is far from a lyrical genius. and yes sage rhymes sub-par.


    no.. now i'm just stating my opinion, and you're throwing a hissy fit.


    yea and that nas song is weak... no @ dmx.


    i wont lie, i'm not even going to listen to the song because youtube isnt working for me for some reason, and downloading it would just be a waste of space on my computer. but i have listened to his whole album 'personal journals' and he managed to shit that up quite a bit, so i don't think i'm really missing anything. you said yourself you only listen to 5 of his songs... can't be that great of an artist.

    whoever taught you that in class should've informed you that rhythm is a concept that's based in poetry... poetry is a rhythm based form of prose... college boy...
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  9. .:Pain:.

    .:Pain:. Futurely J. Keeper

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    Jesus Christ.

    Maybe his sound better, as far as technically Nas is nowhere near Sage. I've seen verses from Sage where literally just about every word is part of the rhyme scheme and the whole verse still made sense and was lyrical.

    If you read DMX's lyrics and never heard him spit you would have no fuckin' clue how to flow his shit. His flow is offbeat a lot, he used to be so well at executing it that it sounded natural. And that Nas song was sick, idk wtf you're talkin' about.

    I just said he's not that good of a rapper, I just said his raps are more lyrical than 99.9% of other rappers. There's more to rap than lyricism, but we're not talking about the artist as a whole, just his lyricism, so stay the fuck on topic.

    lol This mother fucker thinks he's smart. Poetry is an incredibly generic term. It applies to any form of writing written in prose, RHYTHM IS NOT REQUIRED EVER. When you write a song, rhythm must always be considered, which is why I hate El-P, who completely ignores this notion. That's why I said music is just rhythm based poetry...
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  10. Gorilla Nasty

    Gorilla Nasty I'm lame TBH

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    Nicely put.
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  11. Old Soul

    Old Soul Nipple Nibbler

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    I own 3 Sage albums and the Non Prophets (amusingly enough, "Makeshift Patriot" is prolly his best song, which is kinda sad) and his problem is TOO MANY SYLLABLES, too many words entwined in his schemes... it's Sage's major downfall. A lot of words come out jumbled because he puts too many in there.

    Sage is by far a superior lyricist to Nas.
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  12. Hank.

    Hank. Guest

    whats the point of having goo lyrics if ur fuckin unlistenable, because u dont have a flow whatsoever?

    pathetic.

    sage francis should retire.
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  13. Halfway_Crook

    Halfway_Crook Well-Known Member

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    Fuck pretentious lyricism if you have no flow, delivery and most importantly, CHARISMA.
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  14. Mask2MyFace2

    Mask2MyFace2 Controversial

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    they aren't great...

    great rappers are the ones people know about. Sage Francis and Illogic? You are completely outta your mind bringing up some lame ass no name niggaz that nobody cares about in a topic of greatest lyricists of all time.



    back to the topic...there's plenty of really great known lyricists (not some local niggas Sage Francis & Illogic...where do people come up with this stuff????) such as Andre 3000 especially, 2Pac, Black Thought, Ice Cube, Scarface, CeeLo Green The Soul Machine, Mos Def and a lot of others...Nas is one of them.

    if you think he's the greatest then fine because it's arguable but don't call someone an idiot who thinks not when there are plenty of other very legitimate candidates (not local niggas that nobody cares about).

    thank you that is all
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  15. Mask2MyFace2

    Mask2MyFace2 Controversial

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    Sage Francis lyrics are subpar.

    "more than one syllable rhyming" means absolutely nothing just makes your shit sound jumbled and bumbled and mumbled
    "includes many internal rhyme schemes" ditto, you bore me
    "multiples" ditto another thing nobody cares about

    all those poetry devices don't mean shit. His shit don't even LOOK like it could be spit properly on any beat....oh he didn't get the memo? Most of the time less is more/

    use less words and syllables and still get the point across beautifully...that's a great lyricist. Ever heard phrases like "keep it simple stupid", "short and sweet", 'less is more' etc? It applies directly to this rapper.

    taking something complex and making it easier to digest or understand...that's a great lyricist.

    "Using commercial aviation as instruments of destruction"

    why he aint just say airplane? As instruments of destruction? there's no other way to say it? and a good majority o fhis shit is like that.

    Really...he is what you call a thesaurus rapper because he uses unnecessary substitutes for words. There's no reason for that.



    Stop hyping these weak ass rappers. Sage Francis is not on Nas or Prodigy's level and thats all there is to it.

    Sage Francis translation:
    "Quit unnecessarily and falsely boosting these inferior hip hop beings. Sage Francis is not on the verbal or lyrical Plane of Nas or Prodigy given the aforementioned criteria and the general consensus of the public as it stands now & forever."
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  16. reggie_jax

    reggie_jax rapper noyd

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    then why didn't you post that instead... and don't give me that 'technical' shit as a qualifying factor for the best lyricist, technic is a means to an end, and should never be a sole basis of judgement. it's like when rock elitists try to say malmsteem or satriani are 'better guitarists' than hendrix because of technic.. even though the sole purpose of that technic was to allow musicians to create beautiful music, not jack their egos off with overdone solos


    it would be sicker from a poetic/spoken word point of view, much like sage


    i think we have different ideas of what makes a lyricist.. i don't think you can be lyrical if you can't even make your lyrics sound good. that's the whole point of being an emcee... if you say something deep that's an added bonus, but it has to sync up well with the music or else it's not good lyricism.. it's a poem you should've left on paper.


    surely not as smart as you... i haven't started my song writing class yet.

    poetry is a wide term yet still a distinguished one.. verse writing simply means writing that isn't in prose, aka doesn't comply to grammatical restrictions and punctuation... and rhythm has always been an integral part of verse writing. in all poetry, from there once was a man in nantucket to romeo and juliet, rhythm plays a part. even if it isn't as obvious as it is in musical lyrics, the rhythm is still there.

    the difference between a poem and music lyrics is just that, the music. so if the poem doesn't sync up well with the music then it's not a good lyric.
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  17. .:Pain:.

    .:Pain:. Futurely J. Keeper

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    Pathetic is the fact that this thread is about lyricism and as soon as someone challenges and defeats your notions of good lyricists, you try to downplay the subject were talking about.
    Ugh, see my above response to Hank.

    If you mother fuckers think lyricism doesn't matter, then don't fuckin' talk about it. You idiots all call Nas the greatest lyricist of all time, then you get proven wrong, then you say lyricism, who the fuck cares about that shit? Uhh, obviously you all did about two posts ago.

    Thank God!!! Aw shit another post...

    I was actually gonna respond to your next post, but then you said this,

    Then I realized, dumb niggas like you have no place in a discussion, go sit in the corner.

    OMFG, I was making the point of why Sage is a better rhymer with that, something you brought up, stay on point shit for brains.
    Idk, two of my friends play guitar and they say that hendrix songs are the hardest songs to play for the most part, the only thing being harder are some death metal songs. In which case they are technically better, which is what I was saying from the beginning. I wasn't using my own definition of shit, I was using the real fuckin' definition.
    Right, but when X flows it, it becomes apparent that it is a song, just like Sage does the same exact fuckin' thing.
    I think you have no idea how retarded this part was. A lyrical songwriter that makes his songs sound good is a good rapper. Someone who tends to lend more of their efforts to the songwriting process and not the songmaking process is a lyricist. A LYRICIST ONLY HAS TO HAVE GREAT LYRICS. THAT IS ALL. THAT'S WHY THEY'RE CALLED LYRICISTS, BECAUSE OF THE FUCKING LYRICS. Don't talk about lyricism if you mean a rapper as a whole. The fact is I said long ago that Nas is 10x the rapper Sage ever could be, but Sage is 10x the lyricist Nas ever could be. That's because if you focus strictly on lyrics, which is what you do when you determine who the better lyricist is, then you'd see Sage is better in that aspect.

    Fuckin' people make up their own definitions of words that already have assumed definitions and act like I'm suppose to know.

    God damn right, you better hop on your horse and get in that shit before your idiocy and assumed intelligence reaches levels unknown to the modern man.
    Where the fuck do you get this shit from? A verse is just a stanza, that's suppose to be put to music, at least in song writing terms. It has nothing to do with grammar or punctuation. Nothing at all actually. Grammar and punctuation are pretty much optional in all forms of creative writing, it's called artistic license. Some writers actually conciously use the wrong grammar or punctuation to make a point or to accentuate a certain part of what their trying to say. Anyways, really, who the fuck is feedin' you this shit? You're apparently not dumb, but the people teaching you stuff are.

    No actually it wasn't and still isn't as intergral a part as you're making it sound. Sure Shakespeare used lambic pantameter and what not, but there's also poems he wrote with no said rhythm, just like all the great poets. I don't know who told you that rhythm is integral in poetry but it's always optional, and that's not something to discuss, it's a fact. Poetry does not require rhythm.

    No, if the poem doesn't sync up with the music, it's not good music. Could be a great lyric, just terrible music...
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  18. Kal-EL

    Kal-EL Krazed Familia

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    Damn...this convo is still going on?...lol

    I mean, I respect Nas and what he's done for the game, but...he's not as good as yall making him out to be. Very average in my opinion.

    FUCK NAS (yeah...that was me hating)
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  19. NinjaMic

    NinjaMic Brian Disease

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    You either like the lyrics or you don't... that's all there is to it. There is no real objective facts to numerically summarize the quality of a verse in any sense of complexity... wether it's less complex or more complex for any effect or purpose, the quality to be had is in the ears and eyes of the beholder.

    I'd like to c&p something from another thread I was in, just to speak on poetic sensibility in this context -

    I often listen to hip-hop for an appreciation of phonetic structure and the dialogue of words in a competitive form. It's akin to a roller coaster ride for hip-hop lyricism. A phonetically constructed verse with outlandish concepts, at it's most complex and tangential, is the purest form of the medium in my opinion.

    Although stanza and phonetic schematic is an element of poetry, it's expressive ideal of emotion and thought is what most writers lend their hand to more-so than the actual technique and craft of hip-hop lyricism. The architectural phonetic structure of pollysyllabics in stanzaical, traditional 4/4 meter in written form is that which makes rap a unique medium and gives it an identity unto itself seperate from other forms of literature and poetry. Were these mere words relegated to the domain of paper, they would indeed be poetry. Albeit, very advanced in terms of freeform phonetics. The need to apply these words to a 4/4 metre instrumental is why a conceptually and phonetically complex lyricist is not just technically gifted poet, but a rapper at it's best in musical form.

    Edgar Allen Poe's essay titled "The Rationale of Verse" is an amazing thesis on the idea of trying to objectify the subjectivity of content in terms of technical regiment. Poetry before the late 20th century with the advent of competitive lyricism, as a concept, had been relatively tapped out in terms of technical understanding and advancement. The greatest literary masters of the medium and students of the verse had pretty much done it all and analyzed or laid the ground work for all those that followed.

    One of my favorite artists, Canibus (who is often criticized for his complex structures, broad vocabulary, and ethereal concepts), is a prime example of how convention was broken and new technique was pioneered in putting pen to paper with the birth of hip-hop. It is a medium in which an artist seeks to create words with a musical aire that can have technical merit and meaning even without cohesive or logical content and regardless of the backdrop of instrumentation and effectiveness of said uses.
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  20. reggie_jax

    reggie_jax rapper noyd

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    this is getting to be way too lengthy of a discussion for what is essentially bickering back and forth.. so i'm going to shorten this down a bit

    lyrics are aways and have always been meant to enhance a song. they are not a seperate entity that's to be enjoyed on it's own, that would be a piece of literature. 'songwriting' is not a term that refers to the writing of a lyric but to the writing of a song. lyrics included.

    with that in mind, it's only logical to deduct that in order for lyrics to be good they have to fulfill their purpose, and make the song sound better/add meaning to melody. whether this is just through straight rhyming like on rap songs, or through a more cryptic/deep approach like say with bob dylan, that has always been the way it is.

    so when i say nas rhymes better what do i mean? his rhymes sound better. they enhance the song. what other basis should i judge a rhyme by? the 'technical' aspects of writing refer to more than just how much you can rhyme, but that's neither here or there. every single aspect of that technic is meant to enhance the sound and/or effect of the lyric, so if it doesn't come out sounding good then the effort to be technical was for nothing.

    in conclusion lyricism is not a strictly mathematical equation of who uses the most technic, it's a subjective matter of who uses their vocabulary the best to enhance the song.

    p.s. my use of the word 'verse' was referring to the style of writing known as verse, aka poetry. not a verse of a song.
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