A small word to the "non-believers"

Discussion in 'The Sanctuary' started by lyricalpriest, Apr 24, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Mrjdm998

    Mrjdm998 New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2011
    Messages:
    7,040
    So basicly you're saying people can't believe things because you don't think it's fair? Fuck out of here.
    test
  2. Jay Bee

    Jay Bee Boricua

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2011
    Messages:
    2,596
    ^^^ur not gettin the point. the point is god believers are sayin everythin that disproves god was "created by god too". facts are god was just a theory that has now been disproven.
    test
  3. lyricalpriest

    lyricalpriest Rap Games Dawson Creek

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2000
    Messages:
    24,097
    God can't prove his existence

    It's impossible for God to prove his existence to beings with freedom of thought. For any conceivable thing that God could do to demonstrate his existence, one or more of the following objections can always be made:

    * The person(s) witnessing the demonstration were hallucinating or dreaming
    * The demonstration was an optical illusion
    * The demonstration is a natural phenomena which science will eventually explain
    * The demonstration was not caused by God, but by someone else, possibly someone masquerading as God: Satan, an advanced race of aliens, a committee of deities, etc.
    * The demonstration was misinterpreted: aliens made a mistake when they tried to contact us, the scientists who documented it made mistakes or were biased towards theism, etc.
    * God existed when he caused the demonstration to occur, but he's since vanished or died
    * The demonstration never occurred, because the world was created yesterday and all our memories were faked, or because The Matrix is reality and this world is a virtual simulation created by aliens/robots/etc. to occupy our minds

    Since many of the above objections can't be absolutely disproven, God's existence can't be absolutely proven. This holds even for such popular suggestions as God's writing a message in the sky or God implanting knowledge of his existence in every human (actually, God has already done things similar to both of these). A message in the sky could have come from aliens; an inborn knowledge of God could have been a lie implanted by the alien race that created us, or it could be an evolutionary artifact dating to the time when human-level consciousness first emerged. God has granted us freedom of thought, which includes the freedom to deny his existence. (Incidentally, Jesus pointed out this phenomenon in Luke 16:19-31, and we see it in practice in passages like Mark 3:22 and Exodus 32:1.)

    God does provide evidence

    Though God hasn't given us proof, he has placed enough evidence in the world for people to believe in him (Rom 1:18-20). Romans 1:20 states, "Since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities...have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made." How is this so? People throughout history have seen both the power and beauty of nature. Questions such as "What controls thunder and lightning?" and "How did the stars get in the sky?" lead naturally to "Is there someone who created the universe and controls it?" And once someone asks that question, they need only ask God to reveal himself to be given what further evidence they may need to believe (Mt 7:7-8). (For more on this, see How can faith be rational?)

    If the evidence is clear, why doesn't everyone believe?

    Some have asked, "If the evidence is so plain to see, why doesn't everyone believe in God?" God's existence and Christianity are not propositions like "matter is composed of atoms" that can be regarded neutrally; their truth or falsehood affects our lives and our entire world view. Consciously or unconsciously, everyone has a bias against God. No one wants to stand before a perfectly good God and realize how far one has fallen short of the standard. Thus there is a part in all of us, both Christian and non-Christian, that wants to reject God, just as there is a part in all of us that wants to do good. That bias causes people to act in a variety of ways: some people don't want to investigate any evidence for God, others will try to explain it away, etc.

    An interesting thought exercise is to consider how you would react if the evidence you would like God to provide for his existence were presented to you as evidence that an invisible pink unicorn exists. No one wants to publicly vouch for the existence of an invisible unicorn because it would make one look foolish; hence we have an inherent bias against believing in its existence. If we all saw "Hello from the Invisible Pink Unicorns of Planet Qumleb! We wrote this message to notify you of our existence and wonderful powers. Come visit us when you discover high-speed space travel" written in the sky tomorrow, would we take it at face value, or would we think that someone at NASA had pulled off a masterful practical joke (and ridicule those who took the message seriously)?

    God wants a relationship built on trust, not proof

    Yet even if God provided proof that was satisfactory to everyone, faith and trust would still be required to follow God. The atheist's question would merely change from "Why doesn't God prove his existence?" to "Why doesn't God explain why he did this and not that?" Atheists themselves would become theists, but not all of them would become Christians: one can believe God exists without believing he's worthy of worship, or that Christ's death atoned for our sins.

    God wants us to trust him, not just believe he exists. If our every demand for proof and explanation were satisfied, we'd only trust and follow God to the extent that he proved himself to us. We would be relying on the external evidence and our own judgment of it, not actually trusting God. For us to actively trust God, we have to continue in our belief even when what we believe in isn't proven. And why is trust so important? Because it requires a deeper relationship with the one trusted. Anyone will believe a stranger's statement if he immediately produces proof to back it up, but believing a person without having proof requires the believer to have a positive opinion of the person (at least that they deserve the benefit of the doubt) and to take a certain amount of risk. If the risk is large, the believer is dependent on the person. If the trust turns out to be justified, the believer has a higher opinion of the person and a stronger relationship with them.

    Another way of seeing it is this: Suppose a married man attends a weeklong, out-of-state conference. His wife can choose to trust that he won't have an affair while at the conference, or she can demand proof of his faithfulness by insisting he call her every hour and give a detailed account of his doings, making him wear a beeper so that she can call him at random, hiring someone to spy on him, etc. Yet if she demands proof, the husband will most likely respond with "What, don't you trust me?" He will be offended because his wife's asking for proof indicates that she doesn't trust him - and since she knows his character, her distrust says that his character is lacking. On the other hand, if she trusts him, it says that she really believes he will be faithful - much more so than if she simply stated she trusted him, yet never spent a night apart from him. It's much the same with God. God wants us to trust him, because that requires both believing that he is trustworthy and acting on that belief. That's not to say that God requires us to have blind faith - he wants us to love him with all of our mind (Lk 10:27), and he will give us reason to believe if we ask him - but that God wants our relationship with him to be built on trust as much as possible (Jn 20:29).
    test
  4. snowy

    snowy 39k Rap Song Music Folder

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2004
    Messages:
    4,590
    But has it though. How many translations have there been, <dl>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica][SIZE=-1]King James Version (KJV)[/SIZE][/FONT]
    [SIZE=-1]The New King James Version (NKJV)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]Modern King James Version [Green's Translation] (MKJV)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]Literal Translation Version [Green] (LITV)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]International Standard Version (ISV)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]The New International Version (NIV)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]English Standard Version (ESV)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]New English Bible (NEB)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]American Standard Version (ASV)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]New American Standard Bible (NASB)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]Revised Standard Version (RSV)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]Contemporary English Version (CEV)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]Today's English Version (TEV)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]The Living Bible (LB)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]New Century Version (NC)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]New Life Version (NLV)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]New Living Translation (NLT)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]Young's Literal Translation (YLT)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]Revised Young's Literal Translation (RYLT)[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]John Darby's New Translation[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]Weymouth New Testament Translation[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]Rotherham's[/SIZE]
    </dl>And on and on

    And how many passages meanings have been interpreted differently, or cut out completely cause the church un-canonized them. Constantine alone removed some 80% of the original books from the Bible. Which speaks to the position that the Bible as we know it today is nothing more than a tool of the Church.
    test
  5. Jay Bee

    Jay Bee Boricua

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2011
    Messages:
    2,596
    god can easily show himself to a mass amount of people. but he chooses to say come onnnn just believe that book those guys wrote and rewrote
    test
  6. DemiGod

    DemiGod Peef Rimgar

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2006
    Messages:
    90,233
    Also what's wrong with stuff changing?

    People used to think that the Earth was flat.
    test
  7. lyricalpriest

    lyricalpriest Rap Games Dawson Creek

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2000
    Messages:
    24,097
    thats translational interpretations that have subtly changed. not THE WHOLE THEORY..
    test
  8. lyricalpriest

    lyricalpriest Rap Games Dawson Creek

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2000
    Messages:
    24,097
    i believe in change. like changing the close mindedness gap between science and religion and pushing towards an mutual relationship in both.. if we are to find the answers science will show them, but if we are to understand the answer's the bible will reveal them..
    test
  9. Jay Bee

    Jay Bee Boricua

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2011
    Messages:
    2,596
    the gap can only be closed with full undenyable prove of god meaning he shows himself
    test
  10. lyricalpriest

    lyricalpriest Rap Games Dawson Creek

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2000
    Messages:
    24,097
    do u realize the arguement u are using is one that will dig a grave u can't get out would u like me to explain in here again why god doesnt prove himself ?? or did u already read what i said about that in another thread?
    test
  11. lyricalpriest

    lyricalpriest Rap Games Dawson Creek

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2000
    Messages:
    24,097
    in fact there is info in the bible about this.

    Its simple. If you do not want to believe, you will not believe.

    It happened in the bible. God spoke in an audible voice but the people who did not want to believe said that it was just thunder. John12:23-33

    If you want some tangible proof of God, here: Healing Testimonies - Andrew Wommack Ministries
    But if you don't want to believe, this wont have any effect on you anyway. But maybe it will bring encouragement to someone.

    He has revealed Himself to us all - but we don't know what we're looking at. We're expecting to see with our own eyes a figure-head or shape of of godly proportions.
    He is not in or of this dimension, so we can't expect His visibility in this reality. It is only in the spiritual reality - and it is a reality - that He can be discerned.
    In the Bible, He reveals His plans, His reasons, His purposes, His objectives, His Way and His solution/s and also what He requires of us so that we can reach our fullest potential.
    Here, in the world, we can see His creation. It is not only the existence of sunsets, music, beauty, emotions, nature, harmony, mathematics, the golden ratio, mysteries, wonderment, flowers, scents, but our ability to perceive and enjoy it all that is Godly.
    We are not single-cell amoebas, but are multifaceted creatures that can see, hear, do, touch, think, remember, taste, wonder, experiment, procreate, love, sorrow, count, analyze, build, bind, invent, expand. We are human, spiritual, soulful, mindful, aware, physical, etc.
    Yet we cannot 'see' or perceive the hand of a mighty Creator in the midst of all of this factual evidence.
    We also expect His voice to be a rumbling deep voice coming from heaven with great authority and thunder and lightning, so we ignore that earthly very quiet voice in our own heads.
    And I think, 'WOW! This is so awesome! All of this is in itself is absolutely mind-boggling."

    You're not going to like this answer. God needs two kinds of people; the Jews to spread the laws and ethics of the Torah and atheists to whom He can reveal Himself as proof of His existence. Without the Torah and the Jews to shed its light, there would be no civilization. With regard to the atheists, what credibility would one of the born again crazies have if they ran around saying "God spoke to me" or "God revealed himself to me"? But to reveal Himself to someone who honestly does not believe and who then accepts the existence of God, that's credible. If the Pope said God spoke to him, I'd tell him to go easy on the brandy but if Richard Dawkins suddenly said he had an encounter with God, that's entirely different. And it happens quit a lot.
    test
  12. The Steve

    The Steve Space monkey I am not

    Joined:
    May 21, 2000
    Messages:
    7,974
    LOL@w/o the torah and the jews to shed its light, there would be no civilization.

    That's such an incredibly stupid fucking comment that I'm floored.
    test
  13. lyricalpriest

    lyricalpriest Rap Games Dawson Creek

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2000
    Messages:
    24,097
    we all know how and when civilation was formed.. we alll know where ALL law came from. and those who don't want to acknowledge becuase it's suiting for their arguement to descredit the truth.. well.. that's beyond flooring that's basementing!
    test
  14. Jay Bee

    Jay Bee Boricua

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2011
    Messages:
    2,596
    just cuz u keep sayin it it doesn't make it true. and btw that neva happened
    test
  15. lyricalpriest

    lyricalpriest Rap Games Dawson Creek

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2000
    Messages:
    24,097
    just bc u don't have enough empirical evidence to conduct a proper evaluation on why you don't believe this statement to be true, doesn't mean that it's not ur opinion and u truelly believe it.. but do some research. then .. discuss.. don't throw out opinion's bc they suit ur arguement..
    test
  16. Jay Bee

    Jay Bee Boricua

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2011
    Messages:
    2,596
    just because i dont write paragraphs explainin myself doesn't mean it's an uneducated statement. smart guy
    test
  17. lyricalpriest

    lyricalpriest Rap Games Dawson Creek

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2000
    Messages:
    24,097
    i never said or thought u were under educated. i never thought or said ur responses or opinion's were fairy tales. they are based off empirical evidence that u find suiting for ur opinion. all i did or said was: defend my position. and claimed that some of ur responses are yielded from the lack of proper understanding and knowledge of the history of mankind and civilization... but not because ur dumb but because u merely lack the proper information to properly assess the situation.

    ur not dumb.. i dont think that at all.. but i do think that ignoring the fact that the jew's having a pivotal role on mankind is a misunderstanding on ur part.
    test
  18. Jay Bee

    Jay Bee Boricua

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2011
    Messages:
    2,596
    o ok. but i wasn't talkin about the jews i was talkin about the beginnin when u said people refused to believe it was god speakin and that it was just thunder. ill b more specific next time
    test
  19. lyricalpriest

    lyricalpriest Rap Games Dawson Creek

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2000
    Messages:
    24,097
    No, you were referring to the jew statement.

    and

    how can anyone prove if the thunder was god or not.. and if i can prove it true and u prove it false.. then what have we gained? what will mankind gain if god is false? and what will we gain if god is true?

    how does the cycles of life presented before u ei: photosythesis, planet movement, season's NOT prove that there is an order of things' and an to have order u have to have a "law" or GOD that is micro-managing it all. your theory say's there is no law and order. but science doesn't say that, that's u saying that.. science say's there is order. why would there be such an order outta disorder?

    good answer for that? im waitng
    test
  20. Jay Bee

    Jay Bee Boricua

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2011
    Messages:
    2,596
    honestly i haven't even read the jew statement if u wanna go there...common sense tells mi its not god. wat will be gained is mankind will kno the truth and no longer fight about it. the cycle of life is just how we survive we dont need a god for that. yall keep bringin up order and we keep bringin up evolution and its a neverending arguement
    test
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)